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Famous carder Sergey Pavlovich continues his conversation with Sergey Nikitin, deputy head of the computer forensics laboratory at Group-IB, the main Russian private fighter against carders, hackers and other cybercriminals.
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Contents:
Problems with Wikipedia
Pavlovich:
Friends, hello! I present to you an interview with Sergey Nikitin from Group-IB. Please love and favor him. And so he brought me this artifact. What is this anyway? This is not a vibrator, I'll tell you right away, but this is some kind of thing, I don't know, maybe a glass cutter, right? Well, some kind of, in short, signature thing from the IB group. And also, these are not all the gifts, this is for me personally, that's it. Today we'll go through all your questions that you, Sergey, asked, and so let's start with this question, in short, Wikipedia deleted me once again today, the second article about me was deleted, they write that it is supposedly of little significance, although I can comb through Wikipedia a little, I can find 10 scammers, outright scammers there, who are hanging around calmly, and the article about me is deleted, they say it is of little significance, as far as I know, they deleted the article about you too.
Nikitin:
Yes, regularly, in fact, from Wikipedia, especially Russian-language, I have heard many stories that there is a whole Wiki mafia.
Pavlovich:
Wiki mafia?
Nikitin:
Yes, Wiki mafia, that is, in fact, and those who do not know, Wikipedia is structured in a certain way, there is a different gradation of involvement of community members who can make these edits. Like moderators, administrators. Yes, yes, yes. Again, merits, how many articles you have contributed, edits, and so on.
And there your rating increases, trust in you increases. And especially for the CIS countries, not only Russian-speaking ones actually, there is some specific problem that they are trying to monetize it, yes, that is, either you need to immediately find the right person with a high rating within this community, who usually will contribute some kind of compensation in the right way to this article, yes, and bears some responsibility for this, or another story, despite the fact that the article is formatted correctly, it is deleted, and then all sorts of proposals begin with the help of, with the dismantling of the insidious Wikipedia, which in fact does not exist, because it is, again, a free resource, so that this article is suddenly restored, recognized, etc., etc.
Yes, I have heard about this many times, I have not yet encountered any direct corruption investigations, but the fact that such a problem exists in all the CIS countries, that is, there in the Kazakh language, in Ukrainian and so on, it occurs, unfortunately, this is true, yes.
Russian-speaking Linux community
Nikitin:
In English, the community is much friendlier, and in general this is a problem for all-Russian resources, not only about Wiki, you can remember about Linux. The Linux community in Russia is mega toxic, and very often a newbie's question immediately causes a bunch of swearing in response, so I call on all Russian-speaking people.
About cashing out and cashing out services
Pavlovich:
And here's another interesting question, you literally just asked a question about cashing out, and it's also known who protects cashing services and, in principle, the government, and everyone knows about it, but they do nothing.
That's why cashing services have existed for so long, for years?
Nikitin:
Well, first of all, the legislation itself in Russia related to the fight against cashing out is not very well developed. On the one hand, when all this was created, this was the 90s, first of all, it was necessary to launch entrepreneurship in Russia. That is, to simplify the registration procedure itself, opening everything and so on, because after the bureaucracy and the general ban on entrepreneurial activity that was in the Union, it was necessary to do everything very quickly, so we have very liberal legislation in this sense, and on opening accounts, and so on, and so on, and precisely because of this, it is very easy to open one-day companies here, then close them easily, and generally open accounts, and do all this, in general in Russia the percentage for cashing out is less than in the world, somewhere in Britain you can give more than half, much more than half for cashing out, but here it is all much cheaper.
Pavlovich:
Well, 7%, the maximum that I saw was 11%, that was before the New Year.
Federal Tax Service, taxes on bitcoin, corruption
Nikitin:
Yes, yes, yes, well, about 10%, that is, against some 70 in Great Britain, this difference is already noticeable. That is, there are legislative problems here, and secondly, naturally, there are people who benefit from this, and here, of course, there is a double-edged sword. First, our tax service is really very progressive and works very well now.
Pavlovich:
What a start they gave Mishutin.
Nikitin:
Yes, yes, yes, the premiere, especially from the tax service, and it is objectively just very good. The digitalization itself has taken place in FNS, they are connecting all sorts of services, and now there were laws that now they will track the nomination of accounts directly, and it will be possible to receive all receipts there electronically for all transactions. That is, on the one hand, it is all cool, convenient, there will be no such thing that you are not given a replacement for some product under warranty because your receipt has burned out, well, as it happens. It
burns out all the time. All this will be electronic and there will be no way out of it. On the other hand, this is, naturally, aimed at fighting Abnal. By the way, there will be one of the questions, I remember, about crypto, taxation of crypto, the tax service is definitely moving in this regard to track all movements in accounts. And in theory, this will allow to fight Abnal as effectively as possible.
But there is always some corruption component, which is definitely still present in Russia and, as usual, in our broadcasts I always agitate for technology. Technologies can eliminate the human factor and they can really fight corruption without executions like in China. They can simply make it inconvenient, impossible, unacceptable if all this is set up and done correctly.
Therefore, a really well-functioning tax system, a gradual refusal of cash, will make any kind of fraud, cashing out, any crime in fact very difficult in Russia. We are definitely moving in this direction, and our tax authorities are ahead of the rest of the world here, you could say they are great. That is, in terms of technology, they are good, compared to other countries, where many things are accepted, even declarations are accepted only in paper form, and this, in general, is a whole story.
Therefore, yes, there is definitely a corruption component, that is why these services have been working for a very long time, for some shares. This is, again, simply a question of Russian reality. But, I repeat, it can be fought not only by imprisonment, executions, as populists like to say, but also technologically.
"Fight against cash"
Nikitin:
That is, technologically, it is simply possible to make some things very inconvenient and inapplicable.
Note that now we pay almost everywhere with non-cash, with watches. Our level of non-cash payment is contactless, one of the highest in the world in terms of the number of transactions and people involved, because all our terminals are new, we do not have this incredible Legoshi of ancient ATMs.
Pavlovich:
Well, what needs to be replaced, and it is very expensive.
Nikitin: And I mean that we will gradually move in the same direction. Well, I think that very soon some large purchases will be very closely monitored, there, all car purchases, all that stuff. Well, and crypto, yes, crypto, probably, it’s a sore subject for, well, also interesting for many listeners. A law has already been passed, yes, which introduces regulation into the very concept and is going to introduce taxation for appeals with cryptocurrency. 13% tax on crypto, ban on cryptocurrencies Nikitin: And the question is, how to track it? Well, naturally, no one will track all your blockchains there, it doesn’t make sense at all. They will track only the receipt of money into the account, non-cash ones, from the same exchange, when the transfer occurs, they will check, oh, this is a crypto exchange, it’s visible there, even if there are a dozen different legal entities. persons, accounts, anyway, everything is clear there, who they are, they will demand to tax this thing, or block the cards, well, as usually happens with large receipts, They will need to be justified and, perhaps, make a simple procedure where you can press a button in the client bank, pay your 13% income tax and sleep soundly. That is, I do not think that we are talking about banning crypto in Russia, I am not at all sure about this. I think that the government is gradually moving towards starting to control this, so that, among other things, there are no gangster crypto exchangers, yes, where a person comes for 10 bitcoins, and now also gigantic sums, and do not leave from there, disappear, it is scattered like in St. Petersburg in parts, well, not you, and in order to fight these things too, that is, gradually it will move to some kind of control, yes, control and receiving some income for the budget, that's including, yes. Is Sergey
Nikitin moving to Singapore?
Pavlovich:
Yes, and we have everything new, everything good, and, in general, I hope that technology will help all of us, including the fight against corruption and the fight against cashing out. And regarding the fight against cash, it will definitely happen, and it will happen slowly, like in the States. I will give you another example, for those who don't know, there are many States where you can't pay with large bills after seven in the evening. That is, you have a $50 bill, and the seller has no right to just take one at a gas station, for him it would be an offense.
Why in the evening? Because people are robbed in the evening, well, some drug addicts need drugs, they snatched a bag, ran to buy something, do something, etc., and there in the evening, they have such laws, very often you can't pay more than $20 at all. Well, in general, $100 bills generally raise huge questions for everyone, because everyone pays by bank transfer or checks.
Well, the guys complain to me that in Moscow, well, those who change a lot of money there per day, they say, well, in Moscow no problem, we need a million dollars a day there, that is, we get it in cash, directly online, yes, but in the regions there is a big problem, we can’t even get a million rubles a day in cash, for example, so as not to show off the transfers on the accounts, but you are still pushing for technology, and now I understand, that is why you were exiled to Singapore.
Here is Seryozha, who will be in the Singapore office with the IB group now, well, on the one hand, it’s good, yes, English development will light up, well, another level, like all of us when we go abroad, travel, it’s like, well, mentally you get to a slightly different level, something new experience, some new acquaintance, you think differently, there is a new culture there, and for us, of course, this is definitely a tragedy, because we will have to shoot with him only on zoom, probably already, well, or when I suddenly go there.
What are you fighting for?
Pavlovich:
Okay, I collected the services, everything is clear, and what are you fighting for? This was the question from the guys, that is, to make the world a better place or just to make money for companies?
Nikitin:
No, of course, if it was just to make money, I think that we would be even more effective in this, in making money, and would not take any lofty goals, which also push a number of people away from us, and this is definitely the fight against cybercrime, because cybercrime causes quite a lot of damage to people, specifically individuals, who simply had money stolen from their cards, and there are very different life situations.
I will give one example. There was a case. A pensioner's Android smartphone was infected, her Sberbank online was intercepted, I think it was Sberbank. One of the banks, I don’t remember exactly which one now, but in principle they are universal, they were aimed at any of the banks, then they bombed all the major Russian banks, and what happened to her, they intercepted all the control, a one-time code, and re-registered it on a new device.
“Grandma’s money was stolen”
Nikitin:
They took all the money from her debit card, where she received her pension, and she also had a credit card, which, as usual, they give out at the bank, yes, they give it out.
Pavlovich:
They don’t give it to me, I’m not a citizen. They call all the time, Russian Standard calls, Alfa calls, Sber, Alfa, hello, get ready in a few days. And they say, take out a loan. I say, you should have bothered to find out that I’m not a citizen, why would you call me?
Nikitin:
No, and there it was very common that they immediately give a debit loan at the same time, two envelopes. Like, if you don’t need it, you don’t open it, you don’t activate it. The problem is that the credit account had already been opened, and the villains immediately bought the funds from the credit card and stole them too. And it turns out that there is a pensioner, she has no savings left, and now she has a loan hanging on her, and the interest rates on the credit card are simply incredible.
Pavlovich:
What is the law enforcement practice in this particular case, because literally yesterday someone wrote to me that his wife just took out a million rubles in credit, and she did not take it, she had no idea, she saw that the screen was blinking and that's it. And now she has a million rubles in credit hanging on her, precisely to Sberbank. What will happen?
Nikitin:
This is a big problem. Here you definitely need to file a statement with the police. You need to examine the smartphone or laptop to prove that it was malware. Will the police do this? Well, in principle, they have expert-qualification centers, yes, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And they can do this.
Stiller for Android
Pavlovich:
So, what if the stealer is, say, a malefactor? By the way, you only asked if there is a stealer for Android? Of course, there are a lot of them for Android. And how did the stealer, for example, self-destruct?
Nikitin:
They are mostly not deleted, mostly not deleted, plus there will still be traces of its installation, that is, there will be traces of installation, interaction, and so on. This is not complete. If it wiped the device after itself, then yes. This is true. But no. Usually a bot, it is found without problems. So, it is necessary to conduct an examination, research, you need to write a statement to the bank itself, yes, to the security service. Straight to the bank? First, it is better to go to the police, because the amount is huge, and then with KUSP, this is a coupon-notification.
That the application has been accepted. And with it, it is better to write a statement to the bank, this increases the weight of this statement. I'll tell you right away, again, this is just a frequently asked question, I don't even mean about LOGIN, my friends and relatives ask there, they constantly get into these unpleasant situations.
How to fight for your rights
Nikitin:
And I can say right away that almost all banks will send you away after your first application, and only then should you not give up, you need to write again, and then bureaucratic mechanisms start working, sort things out faster.
What is the main legal problem in general?
Pavlovich:
Banks will send you away, I liked the expression, banks will send you to Amsterdam.
Nikitin: Nikitin:
What is the main problem, the thing is that when the operation is confirmed by this one-time code that comes via SMS, according to our law it is an analogue of a handwritten signature. We have a law on electronic signature, and this one-time code, it is like an analogue of ASP, it is an analogue of a handwritten signature.
And this is actually your expression of will, and it is very difficult to prove to the bank that it was not you, that it was fraud, that at least you do not have to pay money for the loan, yes, here we are not even talking about at least returning it immediately, so that interest is not charged, singing, all that. In general, this is a very unpleasant situation, but, I repeat, there is no need to get upset, give up, file a police report, insist that they conduct an examination of this device from which you suspect money was stolen.
With this coupon, notification, KUSP, yes, go, write a statement to the bank, you may have to do this more than once.
Pavlovich:
Well, it will still be better than paying someone else's loan. Someone else's loan, definitely, of course. Which you did not take. Do you have to directly investigate such cases or do they simply not reach you due to their insignificance, say?
It can be very different. Sometimes, for example, some banks themselves are interested in finding out who is stealing from their clients. That is, they involve us so that we go directly to such statements, take images from phones, examine them, find out, because sometimes the bank itself is interested in finding out who is stealing money from its clients in order to conduct a normal investigation against them, punish them, and so that these cases simply stop, because it affects the bank's reputation, and in general there is a certain idea in the business environment that the best advertising, that is, accessibility, is not buying firewalls and hardware, but very harsh punishment in the legal field, including so that they simply do not want to get involved. Like there is a security service, it will dig, it probably has more money, resources than ordinary law enforcement, and it is better to just not get involved with them, sometimes it works.
Money was stolen from the account of the strategic nuclear forces of Russia
Nikitin:
So, of course, it happens that ordinary individuals who have suffered also contact us.
Pavlovich:
It is expensive to contact you.
Nikitin:
It is quite expensive for an individual to contact us, because the usual amount of damage is not a million rubles, but about fifty thousand, and conducting an investigation is simply more expensive. And the costs are incomparable, plus you still have to go to the police with this investigation, but it turns out that the report is already ready for the bank.
Therefore, the banks themselves, and financial credit organizations, mainly involve us to figure out what is happening. Again, I know examples that in the case I was talking about, the money was returned, that is, they figured out that it really was a virus, a Trojan for Android, and the pensioner was happy in this sense. But, unfortunately, how can I say it, it is a disaster, yes. And we all started with why we need to fight cybercrime, because I am sure, by the way, that cybercriminals do not always even understand from whom and what they stole, and to whom they directly damaged.
They sometimes steal, for example, from some legal entity, and this is a state unitary enterprise, let's say, a state unitary enterprise, I mean, a government agency, they have some kind of budget, it was stolen, and there is nothing to pay salaries to public sector employees. That is, these are not even businessmen, not some kind of commercial things. I remember there was a funny case when they stole from a military unit, they are now also business entities, they have their own accounting department, usually even civilians work there, and money was stolen from the military unit, and here there is no secret information, I just entered the name of this military unit in Google and Google says that decommissioned nuclear warheads are stored on the territory of this military unit. That's it. And you think, damn. Well, naturally, there is some kind of warehouse there, probably a guarded area, something like that. That's it. Even Google knows about it. And secondly, like, these people had their money stolen through a client bank.
This also happens, so yes, cyber crime is indeed a problem, well, the fight against it is such a mission.
"Our banks don't spend money on protecting clients"
Pavlovich:
I recently talked to a big scammer, well, who uses this call center scheme, but he's a really big scammer, he blocked my Alfa card, this episode was already on the channel, watch about Alfa banks, or there will be another one, depending on when this video appears, and he just showed me the amounts that they make, they enter 10 million, 13 million through these call centers, and he, I just talked to him anonymously, I don't know who he is, so you don't have to come to me there with interrogations, and he says that he is a very developed person, apparently, calm, and he says that our banks, here's the problem, that they are developing, specifically to protect the interests of the client and so on, do not send money at all, but send everything to marketing and advertising, that is, they have growth at any cost, and clients don't give a damn at all, that is, there is no such protection as in The US, let's say, you were robbed and you were reimbursed, well, it's clear that there you'll have to run around and write some statements, but our banks, you see, have a position, that is, you say, the first time they come and the bank's task is to kick them out.
Nikitin:
Almost everywhere, yes, unfortunately, that is, it's not that there is some kind of negativity in terms of some specific bank, almost all large banks, due to huge bureaucratic mechanisms, they almost always send people's first statements, give some kind of formal reply, and only then, if the client is persistent, they begin to simply sort out his case, and very often in his favor, among other things. And regarding what you're talking about, it seems to me that, firstly, we can say that American banks are more backward in technology in many ways than ours.
Refusal of insurance
Nikitin:
Of course. But they solve this very well with insurance. And I think that ours also need to think about this thing somehow, but not at the expense of clients directly. Because now they offer insurance, some banks offer insurance.
Pavlovich:
Always when opening a card, I'm in Alfa, yes, by the way, if you want content on YouTube, go to Alfa Bank and open a card and loudly refuse, turn on the voice recorder there or video, yes, and loudly refuse this insurance. So I refused, and I came, and the next day, when the card was activated, they wrote off my money for this insurance. I say, I refused 10 times, so I felt sorry for the recording.
Nikitin:
Well, yes, that is, insurance... You mean this one, right? Yes, but it is shifted onto the clients... Well, 700 or so rubles a year, something like that. Well, there are also regular amounts, like up to 500 thousand rubles, something like that. That is, there are some very small insurances there. If there were 700 rubles for any amount, that would be something else to talk about. In my opinion, insurance is needed so that the bank pays for it. Yes, maybe the services for the card will be a little more expensive, but it will already be all inclusive and for the entire amount. And not like there are limits, someone connected, someone did not.
Insurance, including, I just mean that it can also protect well, including from telephone fraud. Yes, that is, it is more difficult to protect the client from telephone fraud technologically, but yes, such options exist.
Protection technology from Group-IB
Nikitin:
We have a product called Fraud Hunting Platform, yes, you can read about it on the website, FHP, it is designed specifically to identify that, say, hacked computers and interaction with the client-bank, with the website itself, is carried out by a bot, not a person, that is, it identifies patterns of movement, how the keyboard is entered, whether there is remote control and so on and so forth. Including now there is an SDK for iOS and for Android, that is, a special script is built into the client-bank that analyzes behavior, and now there is scoring, including which deals with the fact that if, say, there were calls from bad numbers, and it is allowed to read calls, well, if you allowed the bank application to read calls, then in the next operation to transfer funds they are increased as more risky. That is, this thing does not block payments, nothing, but banks have their own anti-fraud system, which, based on this scoring from different sources, blocks or does not block payments, stops them, and here is one of the technological capabilities - to analyze whether there were incoming calls from any fraudulent numbers, and after that immediately transfer.
And if such a transfer is made immediately, then it can be marked as potentially dangerous and so on, so forth.
Pavlovich:
Well, how do you provide this technology to banks? Based on some kind of monthly subscription fee, for the number of transactions? Yes, it is a service.
Nikitin:
It is a service, yes. It is a service. They embed our scripts. There was even a whole post on Habr about how a person went to Sberbank and saw that Sberbank Online was giving out some data to the IB group and got very nervous about it. Yes, yes.
Pavlovich:
Like they are leaking personal information, right?
Fraudulent call centers
Nikitin:
Yes, yes, yes. Yes, in fact, the information remains in the bank, it does not come to us at all, that is, the main thing is that all this happens on the bank's infrastructure. Our script simply does this scoring and marks some things as dangerous or not dangerous, but still the decision is made by the bank's infrastructure. And I mean that you can try to fight even telephone fraud technologically, but still, the weak point here is the person, and it would be great if it were some kind of insurance.
Here, again, is even a legislative initiative, we have a deposit insurance agency, there a million two hundred deposits are insured. Ah, SV. Yes, SV. But also insure against fraud, why not. At least for a million two hundred. I think that this will cover ninety percent of fraud in general. Well, because usually they steal small amounts. That's it.
Pavlovich:
Well, apparently, you know, the volume of fraud, this is a top-level fraudster for me, yes, I just sent him, or rather, sent Alfa Bank recordings of sucker fraudsters who call me, and whom I openly make fun of, he says, this is it, he says, this is the lowest level that calls you, they do not know how to talk, they will definitely not convince a guy to part with 10 million rubles, he says, but even they, their ceiling is about 100 thousand rubles a day, a day, imagine, that is, one employee can make 3 million rubles there, this is a telephone fraudster.
Nikitin:
Well, yes, this is a big problem, it must be fought comprehensively, as usual, yes, from all sides, but insurance can greatly help here, it can help citizens.
Pavlovich:
First of all. Perhaps the volumes are simply such that insurers will refuse to insure or set a very high percentage.
Nikitin:
In fact, the volumes are huge in the West, too, but there, businesses always quickly decide that it is more profitable, say, to spend millions of dollars on information security or continue paying insurance, and very often insurance companies win, because there is guaranteed customer loyalty and so on and so forth.
IPscore.me bot
Pavlovich:
It is more profitable for us, we have a more profitable scheme, from a football person with all the authorities, just do it, so that it goes on for 2-3 years and then it is all forgotten, apparently, unfortunately. And for me, you started talking about this script, yes, which calculates all this for Sberbank, during this time I have a bot, IP-score, well, and now the site will have such an IP-score, we simply check a person's IP for fraud-score, for risk-score, well, in all these databases, we run MaxMind, IP Quality Score, we simply took all possible databases that are on the Internet, not only MaxMind, but pulled them to our site and ran them through all of them at once, there for some small fee, which is even cheaper than theirs, and we will soon provide a similar service there, well, we will provide it for B2B, we have officially registered all this, because, well, for example, in my cashback, yes, that is, I see that a person immediately with an IP, high risk-score, also uses VPN, proxy, there mobile tor and whatever.
Well, it is clear that high risk, let's say, the same can be provided to a bank. Or here's a real example, I'm a co-founder of a business related to reviews, with reviews.
Reviews, reviewer
Pavlovich:
And Trustpilot recently went public, if you don't know, trustpilot.com, reviewer, you know what their only competitive advantage is, they make money by renting out their review widget to businesses, and their competitive advantage, they say, is that our neural network removes, well, they don't call it a neural network, but AI, artificial intelligence, and they say it removes 70% of fake reviews, and I actually tested it, I tested it with self-registered accounts, with new accounts, I tested it with real accounts, that is, with some very old ones from different countries, yes, well, these are real accounts of people, I tested it with them and really, no matter what you do, they remove about 70% of reviews. Good training.
That is, it is possible to use it here, for example, That is, we just want to repeat the same thing, but it will not be our only competitive advantage, just in theory, we check IP, of course, plus behavior patterns, as you say, that's how banks are checked. Good. Is it expensive to write something like that or is it complicated, like they wrote it in the script? Well, there is a whole team working there.
Nikitin:
Here you also need to understand that it is one thing to write it there for some small trend store, and another thing for Sberbank, where there are millions of transactions per minute. Well, fast-acting ones. - Yes, yes, yes, that is, this is really high-load.
Corruption scandals: Zakharchenko, Cherkalin, Kizlyk
Pavlovich:
Why are scammers with a camera, earning 100 thousand a month, worse in the eyes of legislators, those who steal billions, officials, deputies. That's why they fight some, and with the others, damn it, they give suspended sentences.
Nikitin:
Corruption is the same. Yes, but here, in fact, it is connected here, the corruption component is directly connected with the development of political institutions. Here. We do not have a political bloc, absolutely, yes, and I am not a very good politician either, but this is inherent in all countries like Russia, a post-Soviet one, which is only developing, here we are still moving towards autocracy, and this is absolutely not connected with some kind of common sense, it is connected with the weak development of political institutions, problems with independent courts and all that.
Pavlovich:
Media
Nikitin:
That is, when a person has already stolen a lot, the maximum corruption component immediately kicks in, and then there is also a second one, it is always a shadow component, that it is practically impossible to steal so much quietly here.
Pavlovich:
That is, one hand washes the other.
Nikitin:
Yes, there is always someone who somehow protected, supported, knew. Here again, I can say, quite frankly, this is also a case, we all remember about the colonel who had a ton of this money there, I have already forgotten his name, then there was the FSB general who also had it there, they are competing there, who has more.
Pavlovich:
A customs officer.
Nikitin:
Here is a customs officer, yes-yes-yes. And here is the moment, this is the feeling that we all suddenly close our eyes and are not adults, because it is obvious that all these people, they work in teams, always work in teams. They have subordinates, they have bosses, there is some department and so on. And in this team it is impossible to hide the fact that you have so much money there. Everyone knows where you go on vacation, what you drive, what your income is. Everyone knows your official salary, approximate.
And therefore it is impossible not to notice corruption on such a scale. It is simply impossible. This means that everyone, naturally, knew and understood everything. Well, maybe I'm saying something, I don't know, like Captain Obvious, but that's how it works. Corruption is always visible, it's always understandable, and it's impossible to hide from your colleagues, with whom you're there one way or another, even if you're super-corrupt, you're still in the same work room with them, it's impossible to hide the fact that you have incredible illegal income, unofficial earnings.
So they said so, so they're interested, so they may also be somehow involved in all these schemes. And that's why, when there are such high-profile corruption scandals, of course, there are always very big questions. The market is also being redistributed.
Pavlovich:
One group is closing down another.
Nikitin:
Here. And when we are talking about a person who stole, say, I don’t know, a bottle of vodka and a loaf of bread, they simply apply a template justice system to him. And there are terms that are absolutely disproportionate to the severity. I repeat, unfortunately, all these things are decided by political methods.
Courts, investigators, police, investigation
Nikitin:
This is the development of institutions of independent judges and the development of the most political institutions, so that there is no opportunity to put pressure on the courts and all that other stuff.
Pavlovich:
Free press too.
Nikitin:
Yes, of course. Here you can even just remember from the comments to ours there are a lot of haters there who say, you know, the court always acts as the investigator says, they are always in collusion there, there is always something like that. Of course, this also happens, it definitely happens. That is, I never say that we have a wonderful police there, the investigation, everyone is crystal clear, and their courts are crystal clear among us, there are always problems.
It is absolutely just as stupid to say that everyone is tied up there, everyone is corrupt, there are no honest cops, no honest judges, investigators. No, there is always some kind of balance, and very often there are some 10% of bad people, they cast a shadow on all the structures completely. But you always need to fight and act in such a way that this percentage decreases.
Corruption in the West, lobbying
Nikitin:
Even in the West, again, which always sets an example for us, in developed democracies they also have corruption, it is exactly the same as in Russia, it is just on a much smaller scale and the fight against it is much tougher. That is, they simply do not let it run wild, so to speak. But corruption is everywhere.
Pavlovich:
As far as I know, it is at the highest level. That is, you will not give a bribe to a simple legal person, a traffic cop, for example. And you will not give a bribe to an investigator, and most likely you will not give a judge either. But you can officially, it's called lobbying, just give, I don't know, 50 million dollars to some party and you need to push through a law.
Nikitin:
Yes, no, corruption there can be at the level of the city mayor, the chief of police, some such things. The highest echelons. Yes, the highest echelons. Not that it still exists, yes, that is, it is not a panacea, but you still need to fight to reduce this amount. There is an absolutely huge number of all sorts of nuances here. This is about the same police, yes, it is necessary to select professionals there, so that people want to go to work there, so that they are paid decent salaries, so that, again, they are lowered, so that people are afraid for their position, their places.
Nikitin:
Again, like this, the best of the best, to work there, because it should be prestigious, cool, etc. But we have a very negative attitude towards law enforcement, and there is also the Soviet period, again, which will push us, yes, and, in general, unfortunately, after perestroika, what was happening and is still happening in law enforcement agencies is sometimes beyond the pale.
Again, I even said in previous videos that everything is worse in the regions than in Moscow, and in the comments under the video they write about this. These are complex problems that are solved at the state political level and precisely due to your votes.
Hello Panch, destruction of hard drives with a magnetic gun
Pavlovich:
Your godson recently wrote to me, who, remember, Panch, tried to destroy a hard drive with a magnetic gun.
Nikitin:
Oh, one of the brothers, right? Panch or something. Oh, no, Panch is something else, Panch wrote. Cool. Hello to you. This is the author of Black Hall, yes, and the hard drives were destroyed by brothers from St. Petersburg, I forgot their last name, twin brothers.
Pavlovich:
Yes, but Punch wrote to me, yes. By the way, I never found out, maybe he just wanted to pass it on to you. Write to me again, I just lost your contact in the correspondence, we'll talk, of course.
Reforming the correctional system
Nikitin:
I'll say one more thought in continuation. I read your book, the advertisement of which will not be in this issue. 100%. Here. And we talked about courts, law enforcement officers and so on, but the penal system itself, which exists in Belarus, and in Russia, and in general in the post-Soviet countries, it should be completely redone. 100%. Because what is happening in prisons, in colonies, and precisely all this telephone fraud that we talked about, all this, all this is connected.
I can't even imagine how this can be reformed normally. It should be practically destroyed anew and something completely new and modern should be built. Something that will give people an education, opportunities to get out after release, get a job there in normal specialties, so that this again will not be a stigma, where they check you in any database, you have a criminal record, you can’t get a job anywhere, at work.
This system should be completely changed. Just the other day I saw a photo of a statement from the pretrial detention center by the author of Lurk Kozlovsky, he writes there that he was locked up again, that is, he was released on his own recognizance or under house arrest, he was taken to the pretrial detention center again under arrest, and he writes that some strange people are driving him to suicide there, and this is definitely not normal, that is, despite the fact that he is a hacker, that he is the author of this virus, at the same time he is a young, gifted guy.
That is, despite all his crimes, he has been sitting in a pretrial detention center for 6 years, and this is a prison-type sentence, it is very harsh, there must definitely be some moment when he will atone for his sins, but he certainly should not be driven to suicide, this is just brutal.
Pavlovich:
But we are not yet touching on Navalny, this situation.
Nikitin:
Yes, but this is a political case in general. I mean that even cybercriminals who somehow ended up in prison need to be socialized and when they are released, they should not continue to do the same thing, they should be able to get a normal job. That is, so that the execution of the punishment itself, the atonement, works normally, including in the eyes of society.
Pavlovich:
Reduces the number of relapses, the main thing is that after this the person goes in some way, changes for the better, like I am your humble servant, and does not return to committing crimes.
Nikitin:
Definitely, absolutely so, and I think that unfortunately, it is not so easy to rebuild the system that has been built for almost a hundred years, it needs to be completely reformed.
Sergey Nikitin's attitude to cybercriminals
Pavlovich:
Yes, I completely agree, but I just had a question right now, and I see that you speak respectfully about cybercriminals, despite being on the other side of the barricades. But if I were to simply describe in a few words your feelings towards a cybercriminal in general, what do you feel towards him?
Nikitin:
I do not feel any kind of fierce hatred or anything like that. This is an opponent, like in a game of chess. I have always said that this is my attitude to work, it is always some kind of intellectual riddle, like Sherlock Holmes and Mariarti. That is, the question here is technical, to find, outplay, solve first of all. These people definitely cause harm to others, to society as a whole, to the state.
They always understand what they are doing, that they know exactly what... No matter how much I talked to people during the arrest, we always understood that they would come to us soon, they are aware of it all. And, unfortunately, the main problem is that they were forced to do this for some reason, and secondly, when they started doing it, it is so captivating, such easy money, it is so huge, incomparable to the places where they often live, that it is impossible for them to refuse it.
It is like a drug, it gets them hooked, and they become uncontrollable.
Punishment for cybercriminals
Nikitin:
Therefore, it is always a respectful attitude, of course, but these people, they know perfectly well that they have crossed the line, they must be punished for this, this is clear. Another question is that this punishment must be proportionate, and it must correct them for the better. And not push them to some new crimes, new atrocities.
The idea and goal, first of all, is to reduce crimes in general, because talented people who do this, they can earn money honestly. I have spoken about this many times, that is, education, accessibility of work, decentralization, so that not everything happens only in Moscow.
Pavlovich:
All the money of the country, all the best personnel flock to Moscow.
Nikitin:
It happens that people have life circumstances, because of which they cannot move, and they take this path. And the second point is, of course, that if they crossed a certain line, this is the inevitability of punishment, that is, it does not necessarily happen now, it can be in 5-10 years, but there will definitely be punishment, fortunately, digital traces can be stored for a very long time, and of course, there should not be some kind of selective justice, as often happens when we talk about Vilcorp, when Yakubets drives a Lamborghini, they catch him everywhere, this is some kind of complete nonsense, this should not happen.
And so, the idea is not to put all cybercriminals in jail, the idea is to reduce cybercrime, and so that people do not want to do it, but if they have already done it consciously, crossed the line, of course, so that they are punished and then correct themselves.
This is the attitude.
The attitude of cybercriminals to Sergey Nikitin and Group-IB
Pavlovich:
And do you feel regret that they have become what they have become?
Nikitin:
Sometimes. Especially when I act as an expert in some courts, they sit in the dock in these terrible conditions, in gas chambers there. They often don't have the same ones now, it just depends on the court to the court, but there are not bars, but such pixie-eye, I can't imagine how to breathe there, what and so on. Of course, it is obvious that I feel sorry for them, I sincerely feel sorry for them. Again, because our penal system is completely inhuman, yes, of course, there is some pity for them.
Well, again, even in the courts, as a rule, they treat me completely normally, because they interrogate me as experts, I conducted some examinations there or their objects, or victims, and so on. And I have never felt any super-negativity towards myself.
They have their own job, you have yours. Yes, yes, yes. I repeat, I am not an investigator who sews up cases. My task is exclusively to understand the puzzle and examine digital traces, and write about them. In this sense, we can be proud, I mean Group-IB as a company, we are maximally independent, we always write as it is, and not as the investigator wants.
Sometimes this burns their ass, so we just teach how to write it correctly, that we cannot say there that this is a virus, we can say that this is such a file, it does this and that, and only the investigator and the court can recognize it as a virus, that's how it works for us.
Salaries of novice computer geniuses
Pavlovich:
What salary level would be, in your opinion, objectively fair? It is clear that when they embarked on this cybercriminal path, they can earn 50 thousand dollars and 500 thousand dollars together, but what objective path would they have received, say, after college, what salary level, so that they would not have a desire, so that it would correspond to their development, brains, yes, and so that they would simply not go on a criminal path.
That's how much the salary should be for such a specialist, who, well...
Nikitin:
Well, if this is after university, yes, I think it should be a thousand dollars. I will immediately give a universal answer, because the exchange rate changes.
Pavlovich:
Very little.
Nikitin:
From 1000 dollars. But this is a person who has just graduated, yes. In three years, he can earn two or three times more. Well, even three times more, probably. That's it. That is, well, naturally, when a person is just at university, he still needs a lot... I already talked about this. He needs to learn a lot. That is, straight from university, there will be no incredible money anywhere. And in fact, this is a normal story, this is the same in other countries. If we talk about Russia, our standard of living in Russia now is, of course, from a thousand dollars, but at the same time, these are honest thousands of dollars and an opportunity to develop.
And in three years, this person can earn much more and already think about a family, mortgages, well, about cars, about anything. That's it. Well, at least a start from this. Moreover, by Moscow standards, maybe this is not much, but in the regions this is gigantic money, and I am now talking about all of Russia as a whole, because, I repeat, a huge number of guys who have been detained there recently, whom I saw there, heard, they are all from the regions, that is, the Moscow regions, it rarely happens, basically it is all over the country, and there the official salary is 78 thousand rubles, this is current thousands of dollars, this is huge money. It seems to me that they are quite fair, because remote work, and it does not matter where you are, you can do this work, being anywhere, and why should you receive much less.
So, maybe, yes, on the one hand, the amount is not impressive, on the other hand, I explain why it is approximately so.
Salaries in Russian Post, salaries in Russian banks
Pavlovich:
And so that you understand, guys, yesterday I talked to the director of Russian Post, and he told me the salaries of employees, post office directors. Postal employees receive from 26 to 44 thousand rubles, and they serve. Some of them are proud of their work, that we serve, like actors or people of art.
From 26 to 44 thousand, and at Otkrytie Bank I recently saw a manager who sits in the hall with a higher education, goes to work by 9 am, let's say, in a tie, sits in a shirt all day, sweats in the summer and now he receives 37 thousand rubles. Well, think about it. That's all, we'll finish.
Enjoy reading!
Contents:
- Problems with Wikipedia (Wikipedia)
- Russian speaking Linux community
- About cashing out and cashing out services
- Federal Tax Service, Bitcoin Taxes, Corruption
- "Fight against cash"
- 13% Crypto Tax, Cryptocurrency Ban
- Is Sergey Nikitin moving to Singapore?
- What are you fighting for?
- "Grandma's money was stolen"
- Stealer for Android
- How to fight for your rights
- Money stolen from Russia's strategic nuclear forces account
- "Our banks don't spend money on protecting their clients"
- Waiver of insurance
- Protection technology from Group-IB
- Fraudulent call centers
- IPscore.me bot
- Reviews, reviewer
- Corruption scandals: Zakharchenko, Cherkalin, Kizlyk
- Courts, investigators, police, investigation
- Corruption in the West, lobbying
- Hi Panchu, Magnetic Gun Destruction of Hard Drives
- Reforming the correctional system
- Sergey Nikitin's attitude towards cybercriminals
- Punishment for cybercriminals
- Cybercriminals' attitude towards Sergey Nikitin and Group-IB
- Salaries of aspiring computer geniuses
- Salaries in Russian Post, salaries in Russian banks
- Gifts for the most interesting questions, subscribe to Group-IB resources
Problems with Wikipedia
Pavlovich:
Friends, hello! I present to you an interview with Sergey Nikitin from Group-IB. Please love and favor him. And so he brought me this artifact. What is this anyway? This is not a vibrator, I'll tell you right away, but this is some kind of thing, I don't know, maybe a glass cutter, right? Well, some kind of, in short, signature thing from the IB group. And also, these are not all the gifts, this is for me personally, that's it. Today we'll go through all your questions that you, Sergey, asked, and so let's start with this question, in short, Wikipedia deleted me once again today, the second article about me was deleted, they write that it is supposedly of little significance, although I can comb through Wikipedia a little, I can find 10 scammers, outright scammers there, who are hanging around calmly, and the article about me is deleted, they say it is of little significance, as far as I know, they deleted the article about you too.
Nikitin:
Yes, regularly, in fact, from Wikipedia, especially Russian-language, I have heard many stories that there is a whole Wiki mafia.
Pavlovich:
Wiki mafia?
Nikitin:
Yes, Wiki mafia, that is, in fact, and those who do not know, Wikipedia is structured in a certain way, there is a different gradation of involvement of community members who can make these edits. Like moderators, administrators. Yes, yes, yes. Again, merits, how many articles you have contributed, edits, and so on.
And there your rating increases, trust in you increases. And especially for the CIS countries, not only Russian-speaking ones actually, there is some specific problem that they are trying to monetize it, yes, that is, either you need to immediately find the right person with a high rating within this community, who usually will contribute some kind of compensation in the right way to this article, yes, and bears some responsibility for this, or another story, despite the fact that the article is formatted correctly, it is deleted, and then all sorts of proposals begin with the help of, with the dismantling of the insidious Wikipedia, which in fact does not exist, because it is, again, a free resource, so that this article is suddenly restored, recognized, etc., etc.
Yes, I have heard about this many times, I have not yet encountered any direct corruption investigations, but the fact that such a problem exists in all the CIS countries, that is, there in the Kazakh language, in Ukrainian and so on, it occurs, unfortunately, this is true, yes.
Russian-speaking Linux community
Nikitin:
In English, the community is much friendlier, and in general this is a problem for all-Russian resources, not only about Wiki, you can remember about Linux. The Linux community in Russia is mega toxic, and very often a newbie's question immediately causes a bunch of swearing in response, so I call on all Russian-speaking people.
About cashing out and cashing out services
Pavlovich:
And here's another interesting question, you literally just asked a question about cashing out, and it's also known who protects cashing services and, in principle, the government, and everyone knows about it, but they do nothing.
That's why cashing services have existed for so long, for years?
Nikitin:
Well, first of all, the legislation itself in Russia related to the fight against cashing out is not very well developed. On the one hand, when all this was created, this was the 90s, first of all, it was necessary to launch entrepreneurship in Russia. That is, to simplify the registration procedure itself, opening everything and so on, because after the bureaucracy and the general ban on entrepreneurial activity that was in the Union, it was necessary to do everything very quickly, so we have very liberal legislation in this sense, and on opening accounts, and so on, and so on, and precisely because of this, it is very easy to open one-day companies here, then close them easily, and generally open accounts, and do all this, in general in Russia the percentage for cashing out is less than in the world, somewhere in Britain you can give more than half, much more than half for cashing out, but here it is all much cheaper.
Pavlovich:
Well, 7%, the maximum that I saw was 11%, that was before the New Year.
Federal Tax Service, taxes on bitcoin, corruption
Nikitin:
Yes, yes, yes, well, about 10%, that is, against some 70 in Great Britain, this difference is already noticeable. That is, there are legislative problems here, and secondly, naturally, there are people who benefit from this, and here, of course, there is a double-edged sword. First, our tax service is really very progressive and works very well now.
Pavlovich:
What a start they gave Mishutin.
Nikitin:
Yes, yes, yes, the premiere, especially from the tax service, and it is objectively just very good. The digitalization itself has taken place in FNS, they are connecting all sorts of services, and now there were laws that now they will track the nomination of accounts directly, and it will be possible to receive all receipts there electronically for all transactions. That is, on the one hand, it is all cool, convenient, there will be no such thing that you are not given a replacement for some product under warranty because your receipt has burned out, well, as it happens. It
burns out all the time. All this will be electronic and there will be no way out of it. On the other hand, this is, naturally, aimed at fighting Abnal. By the way, there will be one of the questions, I remember, about crypto, taxation of crypto, the tax service is definitely moving in this regard to track all movements in accounts. And in theory, this will allow to fight Abnal as effectively as possible.
But there is always some corruption component, which is definitely still present in Russia and, as usual, in our broadcasts I always agitate for technology. Technologies can eliminate the human factor and they can really fight corruption without executions like in China. They can simply make it inconvenient, impossible, unacceptable if all this is set up and done correctly.
Therefore, a really well-functioning tax system, a gradual refusal of cash, will make any kind of fraud, cashing out, any crime in fact very difficult in Russia. We are definitely moving in this direction, and our tax authorities are ahead of the rest of the world here, you could say they are great. That is, in terms of technology, they are good, compared to other countries, where many things are accepted, even declarations are accepted only in paper form, and this, in general, is a whole story.
Therefore, yes, there is definitely a corruption component, that is why these services have been working for a very long time, for some shares. This is, again, simply a question of Russian reality. But, I repeat, it can be fought not only by imprisonment, executions, as populists like to say, but also technologically.
"Fight against cash"
Nikitin:
That is, technologically, it is simply possible to make some things very inconvenient and inapplicable.
Note that now we pay almost everywhere with non-cash, with watches. Our level of non-cash payment is contactless, one of the highest in the world in terms of the number of transactions and people involved, because all our terminals are new, we do not have this incredible Legoshi of ancient ATMs.
Pavlovich:
Well, what needs to be replaced, and it is very expensive.
Nikitin: And I mean that we will gradually move in the same direction. Well, I think that very soon some large purchases will be very closely monitored, there, all car purchases, all that stuff. Well, and crypto, yes, crypto, probably, it’s a sore subject for, well, also interesting for many listeners. A law has already been passed, yes, which introduces regulation into the very concept and is going to introduce taxation for appeals with cryptocurrency. 13% tax on crypto, ban on cryptocurrencies Nikitin: And the question is, how to track it? Well, naturally, no one will track all your blockchains there, it doesn’t make sense at all. They will track only the receipt of money into the account, non-cash ones, from the same exchange, when the transfer occurs, they will check, oh, this is a crypto exchange, it’s visible there, even if there are a dozen different legal entities. persons, accounts, anyway, everything is clear there, who they are, they will demand to tax this thing, or block the cards, well, as usually happens with large receipts, They will need to be justified and, perhaps, make a simple procedure where you can press a button in the client bank, pay your 13% income tax and sleep soundly. That is, I do not think that we are talking about banning crypto in Russia, I am not at all sure about this. I think that the government is gradually moving towards starting to control this, so that, among other things, there are no gangster crypto exchangers, yes, where a person comes for 10 bitcoins, and now also gigantic sums, and do not leave from there, disappear, it is scattered like in St. Petersburg in parts, well, not you, and in order to fight these things too, that is, gradually it will move to some kind of control, yes, control and receiving some income for the budget, that's including, yes. Is Sergey
Nikitin moving to Singapore?
Pavlovich:
Yes, and we have everything new, everything good, and, in general, I hope that technology will help all of us, including the fight against corruption and the fight against cashing out. And regarding the fight against cash, it will definitely happen, and it will happen slowly, like in the States. I will give you another example, for those who don't know, there are many States where you can't pay with large bills after seven in the evening. That is, you have a $50 bill, and the seller has no right to just take one at a gas station, for him it would be an offense.
Why in the evening? Because people are robbed in the evening, well, some drug addicts need drugs, they snatched a bag, ran to buy something, do something, etc., and there in the evening, they have such laws, very often you can't pay more than $20 at all. Well, in general, $100 bills generally raise huge questions for everyone, because everyone pays by bank transfer or checks.
Well, the guys complain to me that in Moscow, well, those who change a lot of money there per day, they say, well, in Moscow no problem, we need a million dollars a day there, that is, we get it in cash, directly online, yes, but in the regions there is a big problem, we can’t even get a million rubles a day in cash, for example, so as not to show off the transfers on the accounts, but you are still pushing for technology, and now I understand, that is why you were exiled to Singapore.
Here is Seryozha, who will be in the Singapore office with the IB group now, well, on the one hand, it’s good, yes, English development will light up, well, another level, like all of us when we go abroad, travel, it’s like, well, mentally you get to a slightly different level, something new experience, some new acquaintance, you think differently, there is a new culture there, and for us, of course, this is definitely a tragedy, because we will have to shoot with him only on zoom, probably already, well, or when I suddenly go there.
What are you fighting for?
Pavlovich:
Okay, I collected the services, everything is clear, and what are you fighting for? This was the question from the guys, that is, to make the world a better place or just to make money for companies?
Nikitin:
No, of course, if it was just to make money, I think that we would be even more effective in this, in making money, and would not take any lofty goals, which also push a number of people away from us, and this is definitely the fight against cybercrime, because cybercrime causes quite a lot of damage to people, specifically individuals, who simply had money stolen from their cards, and there are very different life situations.
I will give one example. There was a case. A pensioner's Android smartphone was infected, her Sberbank online was intercepted, I think it was Sberbank. One of the banks, I don’t remember exactly which one now, but in principle they are universal, they were aimed at any of the banks, then they bombed all the major Russian banks, and what happened to her, they intercepted all the control, a one-time code, and re-registered it on a new device.
“Grandma’s money was stolen”
Nikitin:
They took all the money from her debit card, where she received her pension, and she also had a credit card, which, as usual, they give out at the bank, yes, they give it out.
Pavlovich:
They don’t give it to me, I’m not a citizen. They call all the time, Russian Standard calls, Alfa calls, Sber, Alfa, hello, get ready in a few days. And they say, take out a loan. I say, you should have bothered to find out that I’m not a citizen, why would you call me?
Nikitin:
No, and there it was very common that they immediately give a debit loan at the same time, two envelopes. Like, if you don’t need it, you don’t open it, you don’t activate it. The problem is that the credit account had already been opened, and the villains immediately bought the funds from the credit card and stole them too. And it turns out that there is a pensioner, she has no savings left, and now she has a loan hanging on her, and the interest rates on the credit card are simply incredible.
Pavlovich:
What is the law enforcement practice in this particular case, because literally yesterday someone wrote to me that his wife just took out a million rubles in credit, and she did not take it, she had no idea, she saw that the screen was blinking and that's it. And now she has a million rubles in credit hanging on her, precisely to Sberbank. What will happen?
Nikitin:
This is a big problem. Here you definitely need to file a statement with the police. You need to examine the smartphone or laptop to prove that it was malware. Will the police do this? Well, in principle, they have expert-qualification centers, yes, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And they can do this.
Stiller for Android
Pavlovich:
So, what if the stealer is, say, a malefactor? By the way, you only asked if there is a stealer for Android? Of course, there are a lot of them for Android. And how did the stealer, for example, self-destruct?
Nikitin:
They are mostly not deleted, mostly not deleted, plus there will still be traces of its installation, that is, there will be traces of installation, interaction, and so on. This is not complete. If it wiped the device after itself, then yes. This is true. But no. Usually a bot, it is found without problems. So, it is necessary to conduct an examination, research, you need to write a statement to the bank itself, yes, to the security service. Straight to the bank? First, it is better to go to the police, because the amount is huge, and then with KUSP, this is a coupon-notification.
That the application has been accepted. And with it, it is better to write a statement to the bank, this increases the weight of this statement. I'll tell you right away, again, this is just a frequently asked question, I don't even mean about LOGIN, my friends and relatives ask there, they constantly get into these unpleasant situations.
How to fight for your rights
Nikitin:
And I can say right away that almost all banks will send you away after your first application, and only then should you not give up, you need to write again, and then bureaucratic mechanisms start working, sort things out faster.
What is the main legal problem in general?
Pavlovich:
Banks will send you away, I liked the expression, banks will send you to Amsterdam.
Nikitin: Nikitin:
What is the main problem, the thing is that when the operation is confirmed by this one-time code that comes via SMS, according to our law it is an analogue of a handwritten signature. We have a law on electronic signature, and this one-time code, it is like an analogue of ASP, it is an analogue of a handwritten signature.
And this is actually your expression of will, and it is very difficult to prove to the bank that it was not you, that it was fraud, that at least you do not have to pay money for the loan, yes, here we are not even talking about at least returning it immediately, so that interest is not charged, singing, all that. In general, this is a very unpleasant situation, but, I repeat, there is no need to get upset, give up, file a police report, insist that they conduct an examination of this device from which you suspect money was stolen.
With this coupon, notification, KUSP, yes, go, write a statement to the bank, you may have to do this more than once.
Pavlovich:
Well, it will still be better than paying someone else's loan. Someone else's loan, definitely, of course. Which you did not take. Do you have to directly investigate such cases or do they simply not reach you due to their insignificance, say?
It can be very different. Sometimes, for example, some banks themselves are interested in finding out who is stealing from their clients. That is, they involve us so that we go directly to such statements, take images from phones, examine them, find out, because sometimes the bank itself is interested in finding out who is stealing money from its clients in order to conduct a normal investigation against them, punish them, and so that these cases simply stop, because it affects the bank's reputation, and in general there is a certain idea in the business environment that the best advertising, that is, accessibility, is not buying firewalls and hardware, but very harsh punishment in the legal field, including so that they simply do not want to get involved. Like there is a security service, it will dig, it probably has more money, resources than ordinary law enforcement, and it is better to just not get involved with them, sometimes it works.
Money was stolen from the account of the strategic nuclear forces of Russia
Nikitin:
So, of course, it happens that ordinary individuals who have suffered also contact us.
Pavlovich:
It is expensive to contact you.
Nikitin:
It is quite expensive for an individual to contact us, because the usual amount of damage is not a million rubles, but about fifty thousand, and conducting an investigation is simply more expensive. And the costs are incomparable, plus you still have to go to the police with this investigation, but it turns out that the report is already ready for the bank.
Therefore, the banks themselves, and financial credit organizations, mainly involve us to figure out what is happening. Again, I know examples that in the case I was talking about, the money was returned, that is, they figured out that it really was a virus, a Trojan for Android, and the pensioner was happy in this sense. But, unfortunately, how can I say it, it is a disaster, yes. And we all started with why we need to fight cybercrime, because I am sure, by the way, that cybercriminals do not always even understand from whom and what they stole, and to whom they directly damaged.
They sometimes steal, for example, from some legal entity, and this is a state unitary enterprise, let's say, a state unitary enterprise, I mean, a government agency, they have some kind of budget, it was stolen, and there is nothing to pay salaries to public sector employees. That is, these are not even businessmen, not some kind of commercial things. I remember there was a funny case when they stole from a military unit, they are now also business entities, they have their own accounting department, usually even civilians work there, and money was stolen from the military unit, and here there is no secret information, I just entered the name of this military unit in Google and Google says that decommissioned nuclear warheads are stored on the territory of this military unit. That's it. And you think, damn. Well, naturally, there is some kind of warehouse there, probably a guarded area, something like that. That's it. Even Google knows about it. And secondly, like, these people had their money stolen through a client bank.
This also happens, so yes, cyber crime is indeed a problem, well, the fight against it is such a mission.
"Our banks don't spend money on protecting clients"
Pavlovich:
I recently talked to a big scammer, well, who uses this call center scheme, but he's a really big scammer, he blocked my Alfa card, this episode was already on the channel, watch about Alfa banks, or there will be another one, depending on when this video appears, and he just showed me the amounts that they make, they enter 10 million, 13 million through these call centers, and he, I just talked to him anonymously, I don't know who he is, so you don't have to come to me there with interrogations, and he says that he is a very developed person, apparently, calm, and he says that our banks, here's the problem, that they are developing, specifically to protect the interests of the client and so on, do not send money at all, but send everything to marketing and advertising, that is, they have growth at any cost, and clients don't give a damn at all, that is, there is no such protection as in The US, let's say, you were robbed and you were reimbursed, well, it's clear that there you'll have to run around and write some statements, but our banks, you see, have a position, that is, you say, the first time they come and the bank's task is to kick them out.
Nikitin:
Almost everywhere, yes, unfortunately, that is, it's not that there is some kind of negativity in terms of some specific bank, almost all large banks, due to huge bureaucratic mechanisms, they almost always send people's first statements, give some kind of formal reply, and only then, if the client is persistent, they begin to simply sort out his case, and very often in his favor, among other things. And regarding what you're talking about, it seems to me that, firstly, we can say that American banks are more backward in technology in many ways than ours.
Refusal of insurance
Nikitin:
Of course. But they solve this very well with insurance. And I think that ours also need to think about this thing somehow, but not at the expense of clients directly. Because now they offer insurance, some banks offer insurance.
Pavlovich:
Always when opening a card, I'm in Alfa, yes, by the way, if you want content on YouTube, go to Alfa Bank and open a card and loudly refuse, turn on the voice recorder there or video, yes, and loudly refuse this insurance. So I refused, and I came, and the next day, when the card was activated, they wrote off my money for this insurance. I say, I refused 10 times, so I felt sorry for the recording.
Nikitin:
Well, yes, that is, insurance... You mean this one, right? Yes, but it is shifted onto the clients... Well, 700 or so rubles a year, something like that. Well, there are also regular amounts, like up to 500 thousand rubles, something like that. That is, there are some very small insurances there. If there were 700 rubles for any amount, that would be something else to talk about. In my opinion, insurance is needed so that the bank pays for it. Yes, maybe the services for the card will be a little more expensive, but it will already be all inclusive and for the entire amount. And not like there are limits, someone connected, someone did not.
Insurance, including, I just mean that it can also protect well, including from telephone fraud. Yes, that is, it is more difficult to protect the client from telephone fraud technologically, but yes, such options exist.
Protection technology from Group-IB
Nikitin:
We have a product called Fraud Hunting Platform, yes, you can read about it on the website, FHP, it is designed specifically to identify that, say, hacked computers and interaction with the client-bank, with the website itself, is carried out by a bot, not a person, that is, it identifies patterns of movement, how the keyboard is entered, whether there is remote control and so on and so forth. Including now there is an SDK for iOS and for Android, that is, a special script is built into the client-bank that analyzes behavior, and now there is scoring, including which deals with the fact that if, say, there were calls from bad numbers, and it is allowed to read calls, well, if you allowed the bank application to read calls, then in the next operation to transfer funds they are increased as more risky. That is, this thing does not block payments, nothing, but banks have their own anti-fraud system, which, based on this scoring from different sources, blocks or does not block payments, stops them, and here is one of the technological capabilities - to analyze whether there were incoming calls from any fraudulent numbers, and after that immediately transfer.
And if such a transfer is made immediately, then it can be marked as potentially dangerous and so on, so forth.
Pavlovich:
Well, how do you provide this technology to banks? Based on some kind of monthly subscription fee, for the number of transactions? Yes, it is a service.
Nikitin:
It is a service, yes. It is a service. They embed our scripts. There was even a whole post on Habr about how a person went to Sberbank and saw that Sberbank Online was giving out some data to the IB group and got very nervous about it. Yes, yes.
Pavlovich:
Like they are leaking personal information, right?
Fraudulent call centers
Nikitin:
Yes, yes, yes. Yes, in fact, the information remains in the bank, it does not come to us at all, that is, the main thing is that all this happens on the bank's infrastructure. Our script simply does this scoring and marks some things as dangerous or not dangerous, but still the decision is made by the bank's infrastructure. And I mean that you can try to fight even telephone fraud technologically, but still, the weak point here is the person, and it would be great if it were some kind of insurance.
Here, again, is even a legislative initiative, we have a deposit insurance agency, there a million two hundred deposits are insured. Ah, SV. Yes, SV. But also insure against fraud, why not. At least for a million two hundred. I think that this will cover ninety percent of fraud in general. Well, because usually they steal small amounts. That's it.
Pavlovich:
Well, apparently, you know, the volume of fraud, this is a top-level fraudster for me, yes, I just sent him, or rather, sent Alfa Bank recordings of sucker fraudsters who call me, and whom I openly make fun of, he says, this is it, he says, this is the lowest level that calls you, they do not know how to talk, they will definitely not convince a guy to part with 10 million rubles, he says, but even they, their ceiling is about 100 thousand rubles a day, a day, imagine, that is, one employee can make 3 million rubles there, this is a telephone fraudster.
Nikitin:
Well, yes, this is a big problem, it must be fought comprehensively, as usual, yes, from all sides, but insurance can greatly help here, it can help citizens.
Pavlovich:
First of all. Perhaps the volumes are simply such that insurers will refuse to insure or set a very high percentage.
Nikitin:
In fact, the volumes are huge in the West, too, but there, businesses always quickly decide that it is more profitable, say, to spend millions of dollars on information security or continue paying insurance, and very often insurance companies win, because there is guaranteed customer loyalty and so on and so forth.
IPscore.me bot
Pavlovich:
It is more profitable for us, we have a more profitable scheme, from a football person with all the authorities, just do it, so that it goes on for 2-3 years and then it is all forgotten, apparently, unfortunately. And for me, you started talking about this script, yes, which calculates all this for Sberbank, during this time I have a bot, IP-score, well, and now the site will have such an IP-score, we simply check a person's IP for fraud-score, for risk-score, well, in all these databases, we run MaxMind, IP Quality Score, we simply took all possible databases that are on the Internet, not only MaxMind, but pulled them to our site and ran them through all of them at once, there for some small fee, which is even cheaper than theirs, and we will soon provide a similar service there, well, we will provide it for B2B, we have officially registered all this, because, well, for example, in my cashback, yes, that is, I see that a person immediately with an IP, high risk-score, also uses VPN, proxy, there mobile tor and whatever.
Well, it is clear that high risk, let's say, the same can be provided to a bank. Or here's a real example, I'm a co-founder of a business related to reviews, with reviews.
Reviews, reviewer
Pavlovich:
And Trustpilot recently went public, if you don't know, trustpilot.com, reviewer, you know what their only competitive advantage is, they make money by renting out their review widget to businesses, and their competitive advantage, they say, is that our neural network removes, well, they don't call it a neural network, but AI, artificial intelligence, and they say it removes 70% of fake reviews, and I actually tested it, I tested it with self-registered accounts, with new accounts, I tested it with real accounts, that is, with some very old ones from different countries, yes, well, these are real accounts of people, I tested it with them and really, no matter what you do, they remove about 70% of reviews. Good training.
That is, it is possible to use it here, for example, That is, we just want to repeat the same thing, but it will not be our only competitive advantage, just in theory, we check IP, of course, plus behavior patterns, as you say, that's how banks are checked. Good. Is it expensive to write something like that or is it complicated, like they wrote it in the script? Well, there is a whole team working there.
Nikitin:
Here you also need to understand that it is one thing to write it there for some small trend store, and another thing for Sberbank, where there are millions of transactions per minute. Well, fast-acting ones. - Yes, yes, yes, that is, this is really high-load.
Corruption scandals: Zakharchenko, Cherkalin, Kizlyk
Pavlovich:
Why are scammers with a camera, earning 100 thousand a month, worse in the eyes of legislators, those who steal billions, officials, deputies. That's why they fight some, and with the others, damn it, they give suspended sentences.
Nikitin:
Corruption is the same. Yes, but here, in fact, it is connected here, the corruption component is directly connected with the development of political institutions. Here. We do not have a political bloc, absolutely, yes, and I am not a very good politician either, but this is inherent in all countries like Russia, a post-Soviet one, which is only developing, here we are still moving towards autocracy, and this is absolutely not connected with some kind of common sense, it is connected with the weak development of political institutions, problems with independent courts and all that.
Pavlovich:
Media
Nikitin:
That is, when a person has already stolen a lot, the maximum corruption component immediately kicks in, and then there is also a second one, it is always a shadow component, that it is practically impossible to steal so much quietly here.
Pavlovich:
That is, one hand washes the other.
Nikitin:
Yes, there is always someone who somehow protected, supported, knew. Here again, I can say, quite frankly, this is also a case, we all remember about the colonel who had a ton of this money there, I have already forgotten his name, then there was the FSB general who also had it there, they are competing there, who has more.
Pavlovich:
A customs officer.
Nikitin:
Here is a customs officer, yes-yes-yes. And here is the moment, this is the feeling that we all suddenly close our eyes and are not adults, because it is obvious that all these people, they work in teams, always work in teams. They have subordinates, they have bosses, there is some department and so on. And in this team it is impossible to hide the fact that you have so much money there. Everyone knows where you go on vacation, what you drive, what your income is. Everyone knows your official salary, approximate.
And therefore it is impossible not to notice corruption on such a scale. It is simply impossible. This means that everyone, naturally, knew and understood everything. Well, maybe I'm saying something, I don't know, like Captain Obvious, but that's how it works. Corruption is always visible, it's always understandable, and it's impossible to hide from your colleagues, with whom you're there one way or another, even if you're super-corrupt, you're still in the same work room with them, it's impossible to hide the fact that you have incredible illegal income, unofficial earnings.
So they said so, so they're interested, so they may also be somehow involved in all these schemes. And that's why, when there are such high-profile corruption scandals, of course, there are always very big questions. The market is also being redistributed.
Pavlovich:
One group is closing down another.
Nikitin:
Here. And when we are talking about a person who stole, say, I don’t know, a bottle of vodka and a loaf of bread, they simply apply a template justice system to him. And there are terms that are absolutely disproportionate to the severity. I repeat, unfortunately, all these things are decided by political methods.
Courts, investigators, police, investigation
Nikitin:
This is the development of institutions of independent judges and the development of the most political institutions, so that there is no opportunity to put pressure on the courts and all that other stuff.
Pavlovich:
Free press too.
Nikitin:
Yes, of course. Here you can even just remember from the comments to ours there are a lot of haters there who say, you know, the court always acts as the investigator says, they are always in collusion there, there is always something like that. Of course, this also happens, it definitely happens. That is, I never say that we have a wonderful police there, the investigation, everyone is crystal clear, and their courts are crystal clear among us, there are always problems.
It is absolutely just as stupid to say that everyone is tied up there, everyone is corrupt, there are no honest cops, no honest judges, investigators. No, there is always some kind of balance, and very often there are some 10% of bad people, they cast a shadow on all the structures completely. But you always need to fight and act in such a way that this percentage decreases.
Corruption in the West, lobbying
Nikitin:
Even in the West, again, which always sets an example for us, in developed democracies they also have corruption, it is exactly the same as in Russia, it is just on a much smaller scale and the fight against it is much tougher. That is, they simply do not let it run wild, so to speak. But corruption is everywhere.
Pavlovich:
As far as I know, it is at the highest level. That is, you will not give a bribe to a simple legal person, a traffic cop, for example. And you will not give a bribe to an investigator, and most likely you will not give a judge either. But you can officially, it's called lobbying, just give, I don't know, 50 million dollars to some party and you need to push through a law.
Nikitin:
Yes, no, corruption there can be at the level of the city mayor, the chief of police, some such things. The highest echelons. Yes, the highest echelons. Not that it still exists, yes, that is, it is not a panacea, but you still need to fight to reduce this amount. There is an absolutely huge number of all sorts of nuances here. This is about the same police, yes, it is necessary to select professionals there, so that people want to go to work there, so that they are paid decent salaries, so that, again, they are lowered, so that people are afraid for their position, their places.
Nikitin:
Again, like this, the best of the best, to work there, because it should be prestigious, cool, etc. But we have a very negative attitude towards law enforcement, and there is also the Soviet period, again, which will push us, yes, and, in general, unfortunately, after perestroika, what was happening and is still happening in law enforcement agencies is sometimes beyond the pale.
Again, I even said in previous videos that everything is worse in the regions than in Moscow, and in the comments under the video they write about this. These are complex problems that are solved at the state political level and precisely due to your votes.
Hello Panch, destruction of hard drives with a magnetic gun
Pavlovich:
Your godson recently wrote to me, who, remember, Panch, tried to destroy a hard drive with a magnetic gun.
Nikitin:
Oh, one of the brothers, right? Panch or something. Oh, no, Panch is something else, Panch wrote. Cool. Hello to you. This is the author of Black Hall, yes, and the hard drives were destroyed by brothers from St. Petersburg, I forgot their last name, twin brothers.
Pavlovich:
Yes, but Punch wrote to me, yes. By the way, I never found out, maybe he just wanted to pass it on to you. Write to me again, I just lost your contact in the correspondence, we'll talk, of course.
Reforming the correctional system
Nikitin:
I'll say one more thought in continuation. I read your book, the advertisement of which will not be in this issue. 100%. Here. And we talked about courts, law enforcement officers and so on, but the penal system itself, which exists in Belarus, and in Russia, and in general in the post-Soviet countries, it should be completely redone. 100%. Because what is happening in prisons, in colonies, and precisely all this telephone fraud that we talked about, all this, all this is connected.
I can't even imagine how this can be reformed normally. It should be practically destroyed anew and something completely new and modern should be built. Something that will give people an education, opportunities to get out after release, get a job there in normal specialties, so that this again will not be a stigma, where they check you in any database, you have a criminal record, you can’t get a job anywhere, at work.
This system should be completely changed. Just the other day I saw a photo of a statement from the pretrial detention center by the author of Lurk Kozlovsky, he writes there that he was locked up again, that is, he was released on his own recognizance or under house arrest, he was taken to the pretrial detention center again under arrest, and he writes that some strange people are driving him to suicide there, and this is definitely not normal, that is, despite the fact that he is a hacker, that he is the author of this virus, at the same time he is a young, gifted guy.
That is, despite all his crimes, he has been sitting in a pretrial detention center for 6 years, and this is a prison-type sentence, it is very harsh, there must definitely be some moment when he will atone for his sins, but he certainly should not be driven to suicide, this is just brutal.
Pavlovich:
But we are not yet touching on Navalny, this situation.
Nikitin:
Yes, but this is a political case in general. I mean that even cybercriminals who somehow ended up in prison need to be socialized and when they are released, they should not continue to do the same thing, they should be able to get a normal job. That is, so that the execution of the punishment itself, the atonement, works normally, including in the eyes of society.
Pavlovich:
Reduces the number of relapses, the main thing is that after this the person goes in some way, changes for the better, like I am your humble servant, and does not return to committing crimes.
Nikitin:
Definitely, absolutely so, and I think that unfortunately, it is not so easy to rebuild the system that has been built for almost a hundred years, it needs to be completely reformed.
Sergey Nikitin's attitude to cybercriminals
Pavlovich:
Yes, I completely agree, but I just had a question right now, and I see that you speak respectfully about cybercriminals, despite being on the other side of the barricades. But if I were to simply describe in a few words your feelings towards a cybercriminal in general, what do you feel towards him?
Nikitin:
I do not feel any kind of fierce hatred or anything like that. This is an opponent, like in a game of chess. I have always said that this is my attitude to work, it is always some kind of intellectual riddle, like Sherlock Holmes and Mariarti. That is, the question here is technical, to find, outplay, solve first of all. These people definitely cause harm to others, to society as a whole, to the state.
They always understand what they are doing, that they know exactly what... No matter how much I talked to people during the arrest, we always understood that they would come to us soon, they are aware of it all. And, unfortunately, the main problem is that they were forced to do this for some reason, and secondly, when they started doing it, it is so captivating, such easy money, it is so huge, incomparable to the places where they often live, that it is impossible for them to refuse it.
It is like a drug, it gets them hooked, and they become uncontrollable.
Punishment for cybercriminals
Nikitin:
Therefore, it is always a respectful attitude, of course, but these people, they know perfectly well that they have crossed the line, they must be punished for this, this is clear. Another question is that this punishment must be proportionate, and it must correct them for the better. And not push them to some new crimes, new atrocities.
The idea and goal, first of all, is to reduce crimes in general, because talented people who do this, they can earn money honestly. I have spoken about this many times, that is, education, accessibility of work, decentralization, so that not everything happens only in Moscow.
Pavlovich:
All the money of the country, all the best personnel flock to Moscow.
Nikitin:
It happens that people have life circumstances, because of which they cannot move, and they take this path. And the second point is, of course, that if they crossed a certain line, this is the inevitability of punishment, that is, it does not necessarily happen now, it can be in 5-10 years, but there will definitely be punishment, fortunately, digital traces can be stored for a very long time, and of course, there should not be some kind of selective justice, as often happens when we talk about Vilcorp, when Yakubets drives a Lamborghini, they catch him everywhere, this is some kind of complete nonsense, this should not happen.
And so, the idea is not to put all cybercriminals in jail, the idea is to reduce cybercrime, and so that people do not want to do it, but if they have already done it consciously, crossed the line, of course, so that they are punished and then correct themselves.
This is the attitude.
The attitude of cybercriminals to Sergey Nikitin and Group-IB
Pavlovich:
And do you feel regret that they have become what they have become?
Nikitin:
Sometimes. Especially when I act as an expert in some courts, they sit in the dock in these terrible conditions, in gas chambers there. They often don't have the same ones now, it just depends on the court to the court, but there are not bars, but such pixie-eye, I can't imagine how to breathe there, what and so on. Of course, it is obvious that I feel sorry for them, I sincerely feel sorry for them. Again, because our penal system is completely inhuman, yes, of course, there is some pity for them.
Well, again, even in the courts, as a rule, they treat me completely normally, because they interrogate me as experts, I conducted some examinations there or their objects, or victims, and so on. And I have never felt any super-negativity towards myself.
They have their own job, you have yours. Yes, yes, yes. I repeat, I am not an investigator who sews up cases. My task is exclusively to understand the puzzle and examine digital traces, and write about them. In this sense, we can be proud, I mean Group-IB as a company, we are maximally independent, we always write as it is, and not as the investigator wants.
Sometimes this burns their ass, so we just teach how to write it correctly, that we cannot say there that this is a virus, we can say that this is such a file, it does this and that, and only the investigator and the court can recognize it as a virus, that's how it works for us.
Salaries of novice computer geniuses
Pavlovich:
What salary level would be, in your opinion, objectively fair? It is clear that when they embarked on this cybercriminal path, they can earn 50 thousand dollars and 500 thousand dollars together, but what objective path would they have received, say, after college, what salary level, so that they would not have a desire, so that it would correspond to their development, brains, yes, and so that they would simply not go on a criminal path.
That's how much the salary should be for such a specialist, who, well...
Nikitin:
Well, if this is after university, yes, I think it should be a thousand dollars. I will immediately give a universal answer, because the exchange rate changes.
Pavlovich:
Very little.
Nikitin:
From 1000 dollars. But this is a person who has just graduated, yes. In three years, he can earn two or three times more. Well, even three times more, probably. That's it. That is, well, naturally, when a person is just at university, he still needs a lot... I already talked about this. He needs to learn a lot. That is, straight from university, there will be no incredible money anywhere. And in fact, this is a normal story, this is the same in other countries. If we talk about Russia, our standard of living in Russia now is, of course, from a thousand dollars, but at the same time, these are honest thousands of dollars and an opportunity to develop.
And in three years, this person can earn much more and already think about a family, mortgages, well, about cars, about anything. That's it. Well, at least a start from this. Moreover, by Moscow standards, maybe this is not much, but in the regions this is gigantic money, and I am now talking about all of Russia as a whole, because, I repeat, a huge number of guys who have been detained there recently, whom I saw there, heard, they are all from the regions, that is, the Moscow regions, it rarely happens, basically it is all over the country, and there the official salary is 78 thousand rubles, this is current thousands of dollars, this is huge money. It seems to me that they are quite fair, because remote work, and it does not matter where you are, you can do this work, being anywhere, and why should you receive much less.
So, maybe, yes, on the one hand, the amount is not impressive, on the other hand, I explain why it is approximately so.
Salaries in Russian Post, salaries in Russian banks
Pavlovich:
And so that you understand, guys, yesterday I talked to the director of Russian Post, and he told me the salaries of employees, post office directors. Postal employees receive from 26 to 44 thousand rubles, and they serve. Some of them are proud of their work, that we serve, like actors or people of art.
From 26 to 44 thousand, and at Otkrytie Bank I recently saw a manager who sits in the hall with a higher education, goes to work by 9 am, let's say, in a tie, sits in a shirt all day, sweats in the summer and now he receives 37 thousand rubles. Well, think about it. That's all, we'll finish.
