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A topic about carding in the USA with Arkady Bukh, the #1 attorney in the USA for carder cases. In this topic, you will learn in what cases the FBI and Secret Service start hunting for carders. Why does Russia ultimately suffer, and not the USA? Why do the police deal with carders, and not special services? Which countries are ideal for carders? Can a carder be kidnapped from the Russian Federation and delivered to the USA? We will find out the answers to these questions from Arkady.
Contents:
Introduction
Speaker:
Friends, hello everyone! I am glad to see you all on my channel Russian Ascent. Today we will have an interesting topic with you, it will be devoted to carding. This is a type of fraud with credit cards and, accordingly, I decided to take a second interview with Arkady Bukh, since after the first interview I received quite a large number of questions and I would also like to give some explanations for the channel's viewers, for subscribers. I will not drag it out, so enjoy watching everyone and we will begin!
Friends, hello everyone. Today we will have a new episode with Arkady Bukh, as I promised. He is now in touch with us. Arkady, welcome.
Lawyer:
Good afternoon.
What is happening in America now?
Speaker:
How are you doing? In general, in general, I would like to understand the situation, what is happening now, what is the general situation in America, what has changed dramatically recently.
Lawyer:
During the coronavirus, a lot has changed for us in the financial part, and in street politics, and in the situation on the street, and in crime. That is, the jump in crime is simply terrifying. We are talking about a more than 10-fold increase in the number of murders. We were the first city in the country, or rather, the very last city among large cities in terms of the number of murders.
Now, so to speak, it has jumped everywhere, but in our case in a special form. Other crimes have jumped. And this is connected with the state of impunity for some of their own political ones. Republicans have their positions, Democrats, so to speak, theirs. But it all boils down to the fact that crime has increased, and not only related to violence, but related to fraud, with other, so to speak, crimes.
Because business owners, small-time swindlers, big-time swindlers. Everyone thinks that the police have no time for us, and we can cheat, steal, rob, shoot, kill, and so on. And we, the swindlers, are the last in line, well, there are corpses there, well, let them first deal with the corpses, and then deal with the shooting, and then catch some small-time crooks, personnel and such.
And this has, in general, its own logic, because the morale in the police is very And policemen there are almost never beaten up in the street, they don’t throw cocktails with a hammer. We have one, so to speak, who works part-time in a law office. Well, he’s an ordinary, so to speak, traffic cop. And at the same time he works, so to speak, as an assistant to the lawyer. He does lawyer research. So I just tell this young boy, “Listen, don’t go, they’ll just throw a bottle at your head.”
That is, the morale in the police station is bad. Investigators are packing their bags. That is, people are simply retiring, because there was no such disrespect for the police. And that leads to the perception that it's okay to commit crimes, and unfortunately that's where we are now.
Shadow Market Trends in the US
Speaker:
The media showed all these pogroms in electronics stores, black Americans shouting Black Lives Matter slogans there, when they were actually committing robbery, stealing from display cases, equipment. This whole general situation. How did it affect, let's say, the US shadow market, specifically on the Internet?
Lawyer:
You see, there are, let's say, two factors here. The first factor is that a large part of the criminal world, drug dealers who sold drugs, petty crooks, or some, we don't have pickpockets, but some thieves of various sorts and stripes, actually realized that, so to speak, taking part in demonstrations, they can also engage in robbery under the auspices of demonstrations.
The police have no desire to do this, many businesses that had insurance and that had already suffered from COVID immediately reacted to this. That is, I saw and heard many businesses that simply ordered a raid on their store. We are talking about an operation in which everything had already been stolen before us, that is, they ordered arson and theft, and then, as they say, everything had been stolen before us.
This is the very situation. That is, people who were professionally engaged in beating cars for insurance defaults, deceiving insurance companies, there were many of them, so to speak, gangster groups in America who did this. So to speak, now they say that it is impossible to give them the task of beating cars, because they are now all at work robbing stores.
And sometimes for robbery, for robbery, and sometimes robberies for orders, because they are collected, because the store owners are trying to collect insurance money. That is, we are not bored now. That is, the first part. The second part, who are simply, so to speak, crooks, who thought that now they can do everything they can with impunity. And then it began. Then manipulations on stocks began, some fraudulent cases related to carding, traffic theft, casinos, hacker attacks began.
That is, there were not enough agents, in principle. Agents, in general, took selected cases, selected cases and, so to speak, brought charges against one of the ten swindlers who, in principle, existed on the market. Because, in principle, there are few competent agents, and many lazy ones. And, in principle, there are few agents. And now, in times when everyone who is not lazy tries to steal, rob, set fire.
To set fire to order, not because, so to speak, to set fire. And the situation is changing, so to speak, in this direction, in this direction. Well, and, accordingly, the number of police officers is falling, because they are retiring, and this is, so to speak, in general, the gold fund, the gold fund of the country, which, well, I mean, so to speak, the security forces, these are elderly people who are at pre-retirement age, or in our police you can simply retire at 35 years, and this is, in general, the gold fund of the country in the sense that these are those who still understand something, and, so to speak, the youth who come completely, well, they can run after someone and shoot someone, really. I have a neutral attitude towards personnel, I do not want to use the expression with respect, but at least I understand that they need to somehow feed their children, they need to feed their wives and girlfriends, and themselves, and their sick mother.
I understand, that is, I understand that this is a crime and that you can’t do this, but that’s the way they live. But, let’s say, violence on the streets, robbery and banditry and shootings, well, that’s scary and, of course, That, of course, is absolutely terrifying. But that, unfortunately, is what we have today on the streets of large cities, including New York.
The volume of shadow credit cards in the USA
Speaker:
Arkady, what is happening with the shadow market of credit cards in America now? After all these events, are they becoming larger in volume or smaller?
Lawyer:
You know, in terms of carding, the situation has changed somewhat. It has become a little more intelligent, more, so to speak, sophisticated, let’s say. That is, on the one hand, the old schemes still work.
America is, in general, one of the most, so to speak, backward countries in terms of, so to speak, cards with a chip, and many cards still do not have chips, and stores still accept them without chips, and you can order in stores without any special checks, especially what is ordered online or by phone, it does not have this element with chips at all. The second or third identification system. Usually, cards were sold on forums, they varied by bank, and sometimes they varied by people's cards and corporation cards.
Of course, there is more money in corporate accounts, this is obvious, and hackers and swindlers of all kinds knew this. In terms of banks, well, there is a question of bank security, and banks behaved primitively, in terms of how much money is there.
You know, it depends on people, on companies. People, of course, have less money, companies, of course, have more money. This is known. But again, bank security, I have the impression that it has not become much better. That is, I won’t name the banks, but, so to speak, I needed to open accounts in a couple of banks in the last couple of weeks.
But you will just laugh, that is, they ask large banks, please tell me, what is your mother's last name and what is the number of your school where you studied in order to create security? I sit and slowly think, my God, everyone has this written in Odnoklassniki, this is generally, what are they asking, but you know, if, so to speak, Russia and other countries can be very worried about security. In America, as they say, nothing to worry about, we will print more. It seems, it seems that this is how they look at it.
All their security makes me smile lately.
Carding in the USA: happy and unhappy carders
Speaker:
And how serious is the article in the USA on carding now, those who are engaged in this, has anything changed in the last five years? Maybe the terms have become longer or has the legislation in general begun to change?
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, I would divide the carders into two, into two classes. I would call one class lucky, and the second, and the second class I would call unfortunate. Who are the unfortunate? They are people. And the most interesting thing is that the unfortunate, unfortunately, are mainly citizens of Russia and Ukraine, who are engaged in the sale of databases. I am hinting at, perhaps, Mr. Seleznev or other database sellers who, so to speak, were caught and punished.
Why are they unfortunate? The thing is that in America they punish not for how much you earned, and not even for how much you stole. But in the United States they multiply by 500 dollars each card that you spoke about. That is, if you ordered from an agent who said that he wanted to buy 100 thousand cards, that you would do it for him, in the United States you are arrested for 100 thousand cards.
And multiplied by 500. That is, we are talking about some absolutely crazy millions of dollars, which neither of them has seen or will see. That is, I would simply call them unfortunate people. Why do the amounts scare me so much? Because the amounts are associated with longer terms. The thing is that we calculate the terms according to a table.
And the table has about a hundred sub-items. Well, a little less than a hundred sub-items, the higher the amount - up to 5 thousand, up to 20 thousand, up to 40 thousand, up to 60 and so on up to half a billion dollars. And each additional step in these amounts is a year or two in prison. And it turns out that a person who conspired to sell several hundred thousand credit cards, one to another, despite the fact that neither of them even had these cards.
They simply conspired, conspiracy, collusion. Today we have terms, some tens of years in prison, almost life imprisonment there. And that is why I call these people unfortunate carders who got 50 thousand dollars for 100 thousand cards, 100 thousand dollars, because it is a hallsale. They could not even sell them for 10, because the amount is large. Well, I mean, the quantity is large.
That is, these are the unhappy Carters, and there are Carters whom I call happy. Who are the happy Carters? I want to tell you a story. Once I was sitting in my office, and then my secretary calls me from the book. She says, listen, some people have come here, some scary gangsters from the Bloodscript organization.
They are just scary drug dealers with machine guns, but just creepy. I don’t even know how they walk down the street, how the police haven’t picked them up. And they say that they are carders. And they arrived in MIBs. I go downstairs. And then the story is just like usual with ordinary carders. We used to sell drugs.
And there are long sentences there. They can shoot you there. Everything is so sad there. Now we take 100 cards for 10 dollars. One of our smart guys rolls it on plastic, we go to the mall and start buying iPads, MacBooks. I have gorgeous ones that are taken to Craikslist, Facebook, eBay. Sometimes we just send them for export. We are simply delighted with our life, we are happy.
And also, if we are caught, we are responsible for exactly what we stole. And we usually get a suspended sentence for this. We are just happy people. This is not advertising, no need, they will put you in jail, you can even sit in prison for a month for this, but every day in prison is scary, I do not recommend it to anyone, but I saw happy faces of these people, and I clearly got the impression who is happy, who is unhappy.
Again, you do not need to be happy like these people, because they were lucky, before that they can give you six months, as they say. And the amounts, in fact, they steal are hundreds of thousands of dollars.
That is, quite large amounts, but we usually manage to get a suspended sentence when we are talking about exactly this, in Russia it is called a material cardinal, probably in this format.
Percentage of carding cases in a law office
Speaker:
There is a question about your cases that are related specifically to carding as a percentage of all your cases that you handle, that your office handles. Approximately what percentage is related specifically to carding? Let's say 50-60 percent of all cases?
Lawyer:
You know, carding large databases is actually not much. It can be literally several percent, so to speak, of all clients. That is, maybe once or twice a year, clients come with large database trade, and the rest, so to speak, are happy carders who are not threatened with long sentences, but again, you understand, spending one day in an American prison is scary.
That is, so to speak, I explain very clearly to our readers that God forbid you get caught, then it will be so sad and so shameful for the family. Carders who are engaged in stuff carding, they are probably the wealthiest and are in the safest zone.
But, again, we must clearly understand that the United States may not extradite for small amounts. But the United States has a tendency, when they are lazy or the amounts are too small for such material carders, they often leak information to jurisdictions that they treat with some mistrust or disrespect.
For example, to the city police or to the Frankfurt police or even to the German federal police. To the point that they often even work with Russian police officers and Ukrainian police officers who will simply come and arrest, and the Americans will hand them such information on small material carders on a silver platter.
That is, experienced carders, even material carders, and not those who trade in databases, they generally understand that this information in one form or another will still end up in the hands of the police at a low level, if it is a low level. That is, there are great risks in this.
Real terms for carding
Speaker:
In recent years, various Telegram channels have become very popular here, which teach carding for money, tell myths about how it is safe, how profitable it is. The only thing they ask subscribers, those who, let's say, buy their courses, is that they do not work in the CIS. We have such a rule. Many who encounter this for the first time, they generally, let's say, do not really understand the problem. What can be the consequences for carding and what real terms do those who then, for example, go somewhere to Europe or those countries where there is extradition to the USA receive.
I would like to understand what real terms can be received for carding?
Carders in the police
Lawyer:
You understand, in fact, what we see here is carding, if we are not talking about databases. When databases are traded, people are extradited left and right, they wait until they go on vacation to Thailand, the Maldives or even Dubai, and then, so to speak, extradition occurs. When it comes to carding of goods, in fact, a person is responsible for how much they stole, so to speak. That is why the amounts are usually not that big.
The amounts are often measured in tens of thousands of dollars. Sometimes there are hundreds of thousands of dollars, if you are an active, so to speak, carder. How safe is it? Of course, the compensation is good, I cannot argue with that. And the terms are much shorter than for drugs. But, again, it is very important for people to understand that, as I have already said, the United States gives this information to the local police or the local militia.
Whether it is Dutch, or German, or even Russian. And I know for sure that in other cases, the Russian prosecutor's office and the Russian police brought charges for American cards, if this took place on Russian territory or Russia was somehow involved, so to speak, at the request and with the submission of the United States.
That is, they had some of their own quirks there, they wanted to take their cards, they wanted to do pin-caching, the police themselves, so to speak, also had dirty hands, also more than once, often met, and we have also seen this, and I mean in Russia.
That is, there are terms, but extraditions, probably for stuff carding or, let's say, for street carding, are unlikely, let's say, I have not seen this, but again, is a Russian prison better than an American one, well, I don't know, that is, it's bad here, in Russia it's not very good either, but it's very bad here.
Which countries do not extradite carders
Speaker:
And which countries in general, let's say, are ideal for those same carders and do not extradite them to the US government.
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, there are countries that have signed an extradition treaty, and they usually, these countries usually extradite. There are countries that have not signed, but in this situation the issue is resolved between the prosecutor's offices and legal attachés of these countries. And in most cases, this can all end quite sadly.
A clear example, again, is Mr. Seleznev, who went to a country that does not have extradition by the United States, I do not mean the Maldives, but, so to speak, they agreed, they shook hands, I mean police officers from different countries, and, so to speak, the person was taken out with the help of some tricks. Tricks from the repertoire. So he crossed this turnstile or he did not cross this turnstile, So he already seemed to have left our country, but we somehow expelled him. We saw this with Mr. Panin in the Dominican Republic, where they simply threw a person into a plane and took him away. We saw this
with Mr. Yaroshenko in Liberia, where he was simply thrown into a plane and taken away. That is, the absence of extradition does not prevent the United States from frequently exporting people. But, again, it is very important to understand that the issue is not extradition or the presence or absence of this rule.
The issue is in the political relations between the countries. That is, let's say, if you engage in carding in Iran, I do not think that Iran will extradite you to the United States, because they simply hate them. Another question is whether we want to do this. The answer, of course, is no. But then we will be hanged in Iran.
The dangerous life of a carder
Lawyer:
That is, in fact, the life of a carder is not easy and dangerous.
And in recent years, carders simply come to me and say that it has become simply impossible to steal, because almost all the street video cameras that are there, large banking organizations, they have facial recognition. And I see this more and more often in packages with evidence that we have on clients. That is, the United States sells this Chinese software, installs it very actively, distributes it, and I have the impression that the same thing is happening in Russia.
To what extent Russia shares with the United States, it's hard for me to say, I don't know. This is at the political level, everything is classified, and the Russian government says that they don't like America, in fact, only the Almighty knows what's going on, but in But in reality, more and more often, if not always, we see this face recognition, face recognition, video cameras and analytical equipment in different countries, including the United States.
This is why it is impossible to steal. They listen everywhere, they see everywhere, and there is simply no peace. That is, even the clothing carders, well, if they are not completely stupid, they generally understand that this is simply the desire and unwillingness of the special services to get involved. That is, it is definitely possible to get involved and usually not that difficult. The question is, or do they need it.
Well, and the question is the amount. The smaller the amount, the less desire someone has to get involved.
Hunting for carders and who suffers from fraud
Speaker:
If we take, hypothetically, Vasily Petrovich from Bryatsk, he is a novice carder, located in the CIS. He buys a Visa card from a seller somewhere on the Internet for $150, let's say a shadow forum. There, this card is registered to an American, let's say it is a Walmart store manager, and the balance on this card is $800-900. So what does the carder do? He types, as I understand it, well, for example, Amazon and orders a modern TV.
What happens next in the chain? Am I right in arguing that after a while the bank, having realized that this is some kind of fraud, yes, fraud, contacts the insurance company, it contacts the police, and then the police begin an investigation. What happens next in the chain?
Lawyer:
You know, in our country a card practically never exists in a vacuum. That is, for a one-time theft or theft a couple of times, most likely the answer will be nothing. Somewhere, sometime, a database was stolen or some kind of sniffer was installed or at a gas station.
That is, at some point, all this information flows. We have such an organization called Quick Response. They do analytics at the Ministry of Justice, not at the FBI, I apologize, which does analytics of this data. So they determine that this card is your Ivan Petrovich, it came from an attack on some supermarket chain, and there, it means, they won it from him, and now they are selling it in retail.
Then they start watching video cameras, if they see who it is. Then they do their analytics. Very often, some people have already been arrested there using these databases. Sometimes quite high-level ones.
Well, and then the agencies decide what to do with this petty crook. If this Ivan Petrovich is sitting somewhere in the Russian hinterland, they have a question or they want to do something and the answer is probably no or they can send it through the attaché
this information to the local district police officer so that he would come to his home department handcuffs that is this is the dilemma that they themselves must ask themselves and answer this question and in most cases as far as I understand as far as I know with a certain flow of purchases and transactions and no information is sent. That is, answering the question, if this is the only purchase for 800 dollars, I assume that, most likely, neither the Americans nor the local district police officer will do this.
But, as soon as this turns from a one-time purchase into a business, then, most likely, complaints will follow and there will be, so to speak, an arrest.
But again, it is very important to understand that those carders who come to me and say that it has become impossible to steal, because face recognition is everywhere, the Americans wiretap almost all phones, all computers, because they either work on iOS, on Apple, or they work in Intel or in some other American systems. Yes, they cannot use this information in court. I agree, because there was no court order.
But this does not prevent them from conducting an investigation, finding some directions, making arrests, and at a later stage obtaining a court order. That is, not using what was obtained without permission, but using what was obtained with permission. That is, in fact, stealing has become almost impossible. And this is also connected with the pogroms in the city. That is, people steal and, most likely, no one will be arrested before the elections, because the state does not want, cannot, does not want, and so on.
I simply have no doubt that as soon as the election is over and an arrest will appear.
Speaker:
And if we talk about carding of goods, if, say, 5-6 times or even more times it happens for large amounts, that is, some expensive electronics. In such cases, in general, let's say, a bank that suffered from fraud, from fraud, do you understand correctly that it applies to the insurance company so that it is compensated, and then the insurance company applies, say, to the US Treasury. That is, who at the end of this chain suffers from this fraud?
We kind of say that it is the US government.
Lawyer:
It suffers. No. Russia suffers, not the United States. Russia always suffers for everything. This is completely obvious. Why Russia? Because the United States is not just an insurance company. It is a federal insurance system. In reality, it is simply an organization that insures deposits and these transactions. That is, it is not a private company, first of all. It turns out that the banks receive this money above the due date.
The United States, as usual, will print new money, which will then be paid for by India, Russia and the rest of China. These pieces of paper that they will print. And this Quick Response Team, this organization that is engaged in these investigations of the analytics of these purchases, they are already starting to do this investigation. That is, to the question of who suffers, no one suffers.
They will simply print new money, this is not such a problem for them. They are printing, they just draw zeros on their computer. They printed 10 trillion in the last couple of months, now they will print another 10, they will print in a trillion, that's how many zeros there are, and this is what they are arranging, they will print more. That is not the question. The question is, so to speak, will there be an arrest or not, or is this such a small amount that they simply do not even want to bother. This is the component, this is the main element.
In court, of course, it sounds like, look, they stole from the United States, stole from the bank, but in reality, it's just printed money, which, of course, is a headache for the people from whom this money was stolen, they have to fill out a form, they have to hang on the line for an hour, this is a loss of working time, and, of course, in front of the judge we say how these poor people suffered, because they spent half a day explaining to the banks, their credit rating dropped, and they owe there for months then, just like the bank.
That is, it's a huge waste of time and a huge inconvenience. But whether they really lost money, I doubt it.
Who catches carders, the police or the FBI
Speaker:
And who, in general, is investigating carding cases? Is it the police or the FBI? Who is responsible for this?
Lawyer:
You know, we have half a dozen agencies that do this. First they get to the bureau that does analytics, and then they start dumping it on the agencies that are interested in investigating this attack. Sometimes several agencies take on the same attack. Popular agents are the FBI, this is the Secret Service. They are engaged in the protection of the president and suddenly, unexpectedly, over the last few decades, they have become involved in carding, well, they have always been involved in counterfeiters.
This is done by HSI, Homeland Security, USS, this is the Secret Service, FB, all names and three letters everywhere. That is, Diplomatic Security, sometimes they do this.
Many federal agencies, postal inspectors sometimes even get involved in these matters. That is, this is another federal agency that deals with such investigations. And this is at the federal level. At the staff level, this intelligence information, or as we call it intelligence, is often leaked to the local level, to the city level.
Interaction between the US and Russian services on carder matters
Lawyer:
Where, of course, the police are much weaker, the salaries are much lower, and, so to speak, it's all much more primitive. More primitive, but if the case is well prepared, they will go and make an arrest. This is usually about relatively smaller amounts. And, of course, they leak it to their partners abroad when they don't want to bother or can't bother.
That is, leak this information to Germany, to France, to Holland, We see this constantly, now it has become more and more common in Ukraine, but in Russia too, in fact. That is, if they understand that this small-time crook from the Russian hinterland is unlikely to go anywhere, then they just stop it, put a stop to it, even taking into account the great disrespect and mistrust of the Russian special services, Because here, I often communicate with agents, but they still leak it to them, I often communicate with agents.
Agents say it is very difficult to trust the Russian police when they slap Carters in order to take away their cards and resell them to someone else, or to do it themselves through their front men, to do ping-caching, to pull cash out of the machine.
That is, the American special services know this, so the respect is not wildly high, but better this way than nothing. Therefore, so to speak, they also coordinate with the Russian special services and also provide this information.
The amount of damage and who takes on the case
Speaker:
Arkady, but look, it means that the police are involved in the investigation in the case, let's say, if the amount of damage, let's say, exceeds, say, 5 thousand dollars or 10 thousand, or all the same these amounts should be higher.
Lawyer:
Look, it means that different agencies and different districts have different input budgets, below which they do not want to fall, because they are too cool. The greatest district, the greatest direction is our New York southern district in Manhattan. These are people who arrest presidents of countries, congressmen of other countries and congressmen of all sorts, so to speak, where we are talking about several million dollars.
If we are talking about other districts or other, so to speak, federal jurisdictions, there could be millions, even a little less. At the city level, when they leaked this information, I think they want to see at least a hundred, two, well, maybe many tens of thousands of dollars.
And if there are not tens of thousands of dollars, well, the answer is, probably, no one is interested in it at all. That is, I don’t think they will even do it, that they will even do it, send it to the international attaché. That is, there should be tens of thousands of dollars.
Less than tens, I think, probably not.
If you enter 300-400 dollars, what will happen for this?
Speaker:
Am I right in understanding that, let's say, a certain Vasily Petrovich, yes, who enters at a time, I don't know, the same thing, stuff carding, for 300, 400 dollars and the total amount of damage that he causes, well, let's say, does not reach 10 thousand dollars a month, well, in fact, in principle, nothing will happen to him for this. Again, probably depends on the district, but nevertheless, in general, we can say that it is more or less safe.
Lawyer:
You know, it is not a question of a month, it is a question of several years. That is, if it runs up to tens of thousands of dollars, there is a chance that they will leak this information, that he will be arrested. But again, I don't want this to be a proposal for people to steal little by little, and what if a person gets arrested and then I'll be ashamed that I gave a person a lawyer's
recommendation to steal, but little by little, that is, I won't survive if my listener ends up behind bars even for a week for petty theft, that is, it's a sin and it's suffering for a person.
Speaker:
If we're talking about the US Secret Service, which is investigating very large carding cases, they're looking at cases that are, let's say, of a larger scale. What amounts usually figure in such investigations?
Lawyer:
You know, I haven't seen federal services that have less than in recent years, let's say, more than half a million dollars. That is, if it's less than half a million, not a single federal agency has taken on such a thing. But that doesn't mean they won't leak this information to the city level or the international level. I mean the Russian police, so that they simply shut down this small shop.
Therefore, this is not a reason to relax and not a reason to think that if I steal little, the Americans will not come to me. Yes, the Americans will not come, the local police officer will come with a big rubber truncheon.
Where is it safer for carders to enter USA vs EU
Speaker:
If we are talking about criminal law in the USA and the European Union, in general, where is it safer for a person to engage in their activities and steal money? Figuratively speaking, many, say, who sit on these forums, they talk about what is in Europe, right?
Lawyer:
In Europe. The thing is that in America the sentences are terrible, just terrible. In Russia, there are elements of bullying, tough prisons, and so on. That is, the happiest, the most worthy cards are those who stole European banks while in Europe, minimal sentences, you served a year, they counted a day for you as three, and so on.
France is especially relaxed, Italy, but simply relaxed. That is, this is the coolest place to steal again, because I understand that no one wants to have a day in prison. But, let's say, the happiest, but stolen dollar, if the question is asked like this, are those who stole from northern European banks in Europe, but I also do not recommend.
Why are there so many carders in Ukraine
Speaker:
Why traditionally do we have, say, so many carders in Ukraine? We can say that even more than in the Russian Federation.
Lawyer:
Kharkov is really a computer, mathematical, engineering, technical center. Indeed, let's say, the cream of the Soviet society, mathematical, technical and technological, which was and is located there, but the low standard of living has historically led to the fact that people want to live like in the West, living like in the West does not work out for some reason, and the youth went into computer fraud, in this case hacking, carding and so on.
That is why we often see such major swindlers in Odessa, Kharkov, and St. Petersburg. In Moscow, there are actually few, although they do happen.
How the FBI tracks the movement of carders
Speaker:
And how does the FBI track the movement of carders from the CIS, when they, for example, go on vacation, to the Maldives or somewhere else? Where do they get this information about flights, about their movements?
Lawyer:
You know, first of all, the United States has long ago introduced an anti-terrorist program, anti-terrorist software, so now they know how, what, and when everything that gets on a plane. In airports, as part of this program, there is also face recognition, facial recognition, and almost eye reading.
That is exactly what I am talking about. Swindlers come, serious, well-known swindlers, they just come and say, and say that it has become impossible to steal, because they take it away at the airport. At the airport they have this... The United States has software similar to all over the world. To what extent Russia coordinates with them and provides access is unclear.
At one time, Russia used this software. Now they seem to say that they do not allow it to be used, in fact, they do or do not allow it, only the Almighty knows. The carders themselves do not trust the Russian media, because they understand that the Russian media say that we can't stand America, But in fact, so to speak, there is coordination and data exchange, exchange, what is called MLAD, this is information exchange at the state level, an agreement between countries, as well as the use of this American software.
That is, to what extent this coordination occurs is unclear to anyone, because this is for secret data.
Having entered into cloud mining
Speaker:
Arkady, here was an interesting question from one of the subscribers, were there any cases in your practice when carders entered funds of American citizens into cloud mining services, which are engaged in cryptocurrencies. How does this even happen? That is, a credit card is taken, certain funds are withdrawn from it and for these funds a certain virtual contract is drawn up with a company that, for this money, let's say, allocates you certain capacities for mining the same bitcoin and, for example, this is valid for five years, mainly this is the jurisdiction of Hong Kong.
Lawyer:
You know, I don't remember specifically with cloud mining, but what can I comment on, if a credit card is given not to a place with a good reputation, such as eBay, such as large American or European stores, but mainly American, Amazon and so on, especially foreign, especially Hong Kong, such transactions are frozen immediately.
That is, the United States is increasingly using pattern analytics, transactions, and when suddenly a housewife does some kind of incomprehensible cloud mining in Hong Kong, you can imagine the bank's response. The bank's response will be very simple.
They will call the housewife and ask, "Madam, is everything OK with you?" But in reality, I think they call me once a day. Given that my marketing department is located both in Russia and Ukraine, and sometimes they have to pay for some of their computer services, and they call me every other day. And they ask, we have a transaction here to Russia. Is everything OK with you? Do you have a card? I say, no, no, it's OK. And very often they first stop, and then sort it out. That is, Hong Kong, Russia, Ukraine and other Eastern Europe will not work.
That is, well, there are some banks that, well, got something mixed up there and, maybe, they will get through. But in reality, this is extremely unlikely and it all looks pretty sad. Well, again, this woman will notice that it was an operation, because people look at their statements several times a week, and therefore directly on the phone, therefore the probability that they will detect, stop.
And then the question arises, then the organization that deals with the analysis of theft is engaged in, where this credit card was stolen from. Yes, indeed, cryptocurrency may not be so easy to track, although there is already very good analytics for this, and they are very good at determining by cryptocurrency who it went to, when it went and how it went. But even at a lower level of payment, they already, so to speak, see something and know something, have some analytics.
But again we return to the same question. To steal a little, most likely, will get away with it, and the more, the more chances to catch.
Real carding
Speaker:
If we are talking about real carding, that is, real carding using skimmers in the US, how problematic is it still or is this particular direction of carding, is it already becoming, let's say, a thing of the past?
Lawyer:
You know, I just haven't seen or heard of skimmers who simply collect cards at gas stations for about 5 years. And the fact that such clients don't come to me most likely suggests that it has probably gone into oblivion. It probably doesn't make sense, that is, there is no such flow of cars at gas stations that it would make sense. It
's easier to buy for 5 dollars on Facebook, on a closed black forum on Facebook, it's easier to buy a hundred cards for 5 dollars, and if you haggle, you can buy them for 3. I don't see the point in collecting it. I think that for this reason, probably, this form of carding has died.
Can US intelligence services kidnap a person from the Russian Federation
? Speaker:
There was also another interesting question after our interview. Some viewers asked a question, a personal message, about how the American authorities can kidnap a cybercriminal on their territory and deliver him to the United States. To what extent is this true or a myth? And are there any real examples of this?
Lawyer:
There are no examples. I think it is unrealistic. I think that this has not really happened. Although I cannot disclose names, but there have been proposals. That is, Russian, so to speak, bandits say, let's throw someone in the trunk for whom they are offering millions, hundreds of thousands, and somehow take him out and transport him somewhere.
And in reality, the United States does not want to dirty its hands with this. That is, I have heard such proposals, but the agents do not want to do this. That is, if they want to take revenge, then not in this way, not throw a person in the trunk and take him to Ukraine, Poland, and so on. Most likely, if the Americans want to take revenge, it will most likely be in the form of complaining through the attaché so that the local police officer can come and punish Carder with a rubber truncheon right in his hut.
That's what I saw and heard. And he also took away some cards for himself.
Is there an increase in crimes related to carding?
Speaker:
And in general, has the number of crimes related to carding been growing in recent years or decreasing, if we take statistics in general?
Lawyer:
You know, in my opinion, it is stable at the same level. Other computer attacks are growing. Traffic theft is growing, ransomware is growing, all kinds of ransoms are growing, computer systems are hostage, hospitals are hostage. That's the kind of thing.
Why doesn't the US banking system change its security system?
Speaker:
Why do you think the US banking system doesn't change its security system to combat carders? Or, in general, if we talk about the amounts of damage from carders, they are, in general, quite small?
Lawyer:
You know, I thought about this issue very seriously in my cybersecurity company, CyberSec Group. What did I find? The thing is that European banks really suffer from carders. This is why, when a database was stolen, many Russian carders, instead of selling cards to retail, simply contact a French, Swiss or Italian bank, and they will gladly pay a couple hundred thousand dollars, shake hands and they will promise not to give it to anyone.
In general, both countries keep their word. In the United States, this is prohibited and impossible. This is why Russian carders, Ukrainian carders do not sell it to banks, that the banks simply will not buy it, because they are insured and the government will pay. And the government has a tendency, so to speak, the concept of not bargaining with terrorists and thieves. And this is why, and this is like a national palace, this is a national rule.
This leads to the fact that, so to speak, Eastern European carders pump out money, and the United States continues to print new money, but it is called an insurance company, a federal insurance company, in fact it is just a federal resource that covers the damage and produces new zeros to the new trillions
of dollars that they print.
Is it difficult to defend lone carders in a US court?
Speaker:
And in general, is it difficult to defend an amateur carder in an American court, let's say a non-professional, maybe a lone one, but who caused a large amount of damage.
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, lone carders, firstly, we don't have such high prices for lone carders, because lone carders, they usually deal with small amounts, their sentences are not that long, in general, the federal service doesn't bother them, the city or state police deal with them. That is, there are sentences of several years. That is, if he goes with a free lawyer, it will most likely end up with not such wild terms in principle.
That is, we are talking about a year or two. For amounts up to 100 thousand dollars, maybe a little more. And if they come with good private lawyers, it works out even without cooperation. Many do not want to cooperate with the prosecutor's office, having paid, so to speak, damages, apologizing, and so on.
You can even get out on probation, something like that, without even cooperating. Although many say that it is not difficult for me, I am not a professional gangster, I will gladly go to my Facebook and salt those from whom I bought. Let me buy and do these operations under your supervision. Well, in this case, statistically it turns out to be a 30 percent discount on terms, and our office manages to get out almost always, how much time he served, how much time he served, if the client still wants to cooperate.
Well, again, some want to cooperate, some say, can I just find guilty. To prove innocence in our court, we, like in Japan and Belarus, have a 99 percent chance that a person will be found guilty. What is called the conviction rate, the rating that they will find the guilty.
Clients say, listen, I am not an ordinary typical agent. We do not go on an operation where there is a 99% chance that we will not get up with it.
Is carding easy money?
Speaker:
And the final question, what advice would you give to those who have not yet broken anything, but are thinking about easy money through carding?
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, I don’t think that it’s easy money. The thing is that in order to steal safely, you need to invest tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for a relatively safe theft. The thing is that the US government invests absolutely crazy billions of dollars in tracking, in facial recognition, eyes, and so on, in wiretapping of all devices in general.
That is, in reality, stealing with impunity is almost probably impossible, and the bigger question is how much money you will have to put there, and stealing in the hope that it is too little and therefore they will not come to you sounds stupid.
That is, perhaps, it may be better to look for a good employer in the United States either upon arrival or remotely, and work in America, work in Western countries. And Russian companies, there are a lot of computer companies that pay good money. That is, I have a lot of Russian companies that we, so to speak, lead, that complain that they lack good and, so to speak, smart workers.
If you are smart, educated and, so to speak, intelligent and a good worker, there are a lot of opportunities, a lot of options. Don't want to work for someone else? Open your own company. That's also an option.
But like that, to come quickly and steal, but that sounds stupid and well, and 5 times you'll probably get lucky, the question is what will happen the 10th time and that's the situation, people usually steal once or twice 5 10 it turns out that it's okay, but on the 12th the police or militia come, it all ends very, very sadly, that is, my advice is probably better not to, it will be more expensive.
Speaker:
Arkady, thank you very much for the interview. If anyone has any questions, I will post all the contacts of Arkady's office and you can safely write to him to use legal assistance, request, perhaps, a consultation, and so on. Arkady, thank you very much.
Lawyer:
Thank you.
Guest of the interview Arkady Bukh:
www.bukhglobal.com - official website
honorable@usa.com - ask a question/suggestion
Contact by phone +16462204697, Skype, Viber, What's up, WeChat, Telegram, Wire, FaceTime, Facebook messenger, Signal
Contents:
- Introduction
- What's happening in America now?
- Shadow Market Trends in the US
- The Volume of Shadow Credit Cards in the US
- Carding in the USA: Lucky and Unlucky Carders
- Percentage of cases involving carding in a law office
- Real terms for carding
- Carders in the police
- Which countries do not extradite carders
- The Dangerous Life of a Carder
- Hunting for carders and who suffers from fraud
- Who catches carders, the police or the FBI?
- Interaction between the US and Russian services on carders
- Amounts of damage and who takes on the case
- If you enter 300-400 dollars, what will it cost?
- Where is it safer for carders to enter USA vs EU
- Why are there many carders in Ukraine
- How the FBI Tracks Carders' Movements
- Having driven into cloud mining
- Real carding
- Can US intelligence agencies kidnap a person from Russia?
- Is there an increase in crimes related to carding?
- Why the US Banking System Isn't Changing Its Security System
- Is it difficult to defend lone carders in US court?
- Is carding easy money?
Introduction
Speaker:
Friends, hello everyone! I am glad to see you all on my channel Russian Ascent. Today we will have an interesting topic with you, it will be devoted to carding. This is a type of fraud with credit cards and, accordingly, I decided to take a second interview with Arkady Bukh, since after the first interview I received quite a large number of questions and I would also like to give some explanations for the channel's viewers, for subscribers. I will not drag it out, so enjoy watching everyone and we will begin!
Friends, hello everyone. Today we will have a new episode with Arkady Bukh, as I promised. He is now in touch with us. Arkady, welcome.
Lawyer:
Good afternoon.
What is happening in America now?
Speaker:
How are you doing? In general, in general, I would like to understand the situation, what is happening now, what is the general situation in America, what has changed dramatically recently.
Lawyer:
During the coronavirus, a lot has changed for us in the financial part, and in street politics, and in the situation on the street, and in crime. That is, the jump in crime is simply terrifying. We are talking about a more than 10-fold increase in the number of murders. We were the first city in the country, or rather, the very last city among large cities in terms of the number of murders.
Now, so to speak, it has jumped everywhere, but in our case in a special form. Other crimes have jumped. And this is connected with the state of impunity for some of their own political ones. Republicans have their positions, Democrats, so to speak, theirs. But it all boils down to the fact that crime has increased, and not only related to violence, but related to fraud, with other, so to speak, crimes.
Because business owners, small-time swindlers, big-time swindlers. Everyone thinks that the police have no time for us, and we can cheat, steal, rob, shoot, kill, and so on. And we, the swindlers, are the last in line, well, there are corpses there, well, let them first deal with the corpses, and then deal with the shooting, and then catch some small-time crooks, personnel and such.
And this has, in general, its own logic, because the morale in the police is very And policemen there are almost never beaten up in the street, they don’t throw cocktails with a hammer. We have one, so to speak, who works part-time in a law office. Well, he’s an ordinary, so to speak, traffic cop. And at the same time he works, so to speak, as an assistant to the lawyer. He does lawyer research. So I just tell this young boy, “Listen, don’t go, they’ll just throw a bottle at your head.”
That is, the morale in the police station is bad. Investigators are packing their bags. That is, people are simply retiring, because there was no such disrespect for the police. And that leads to the perception that it's okay to commit crimes, and unfortunately that's where we are now.
Shadow Market Trends in the US
Speaker:
The media showed all these pogroms in electronics stores, black Americans shouting Black Lives Matter slogans there, when they were actually committing robbery, stealing from display cases, equipment. This whole general situation. How did it affect, let's say, the US shadow market, specifically on the Internet?
Lawyer:
You see, there are, let's say, two factors here. The first factor is that a large part of the criminal world, drug dealers who sold drugs, petty crooks, or some, we don't have pickpockets, but some thieves of various sorts and stripes, actually realized that, so to speak, taking part in demonstrations, they can also engage in robbery under the auspices of demonstrations.
The police have no desire to do this, many businesses that had insurance and that had already suffered from COVID immediately reacted to this. That is, I saw and heard many businesses that simply ordered a raid on their store. We are talking about an operation in which everything had already been stolen before us, that is, they ordered arson and theft, and then, as they say, everything had been stolen before us.
This is the very situation. That is, people who were professionally engaged in beating cars for insurance defaults, deceiving insurance companies, there were many of them, so to speak, gangster groups in America who did this. So to speak, now they say that it is impossible to give them the task of beating cars, because they are now all at work robbing stores.
And sometimes for robbery, for robbery, and sometimes robberies for orders, because they are collected, because the store owners are trying to collect insurance money. That is, we are not bored now. That is, the first part. The second part, who are simply, so to speak, crooks, who thought that now they can do everything they can with impunity. And then it began. Then manipulations on stocks began, some fraudulent cases related to carding, traffic theft, casinos, hacker attacks began.
That is, there were not enough agents, in principle. Agents, in general, took selected cases, selected cases and, so to speak, brought charges against one of the ten swindlers who, in principle, existed on the market. Because, in principle, there are few competent agents, and many lazy ones. And, in principle, there are few agents. And now, in times when everyone who is not lazy tries to steal, rob, set fire.
To set fire to order, not because, so to speak, to set fire. And the situation is changing, so to speak, in this direction, in this direction. Well, and, accordingly, the number of police officers is falling, because they are retiring, and this is, so to speak, in general, the gold fund, the gold fund of the country, which, well, I mean, so to speak, the security forces, these are elderly people who are at pre-retirement age, or in our police you can simply retire at 35 years, and this is, in general, the gold fund of the country in the sense that these are those who still understand something, and, so to speak, the youth who come completely, well, they can run after someone and shoot someone, really. I have a neutral attitude towards personnel, I do not want to use the expression with respect, but at least I understand that they need to somehow feed their children, they need to feed their wives and girlfriends, and themselves, and their sick mother.
I understand, that is, I understand that this is a crime and that you can’t do this, but that’s the way they live. But, let’s say, violence on the streets, robbery and banditry and shootings, well, that’s scary and, of course, That, of course, is absolutely terrifying. But that, unfortunately, is what we have today on the streets of large cities, including New York.
The volume of shadow credit cards in the USA
Speaker:
Arkady, what is happening with the shadow market of credit cards in America now? After all these events, are they becoming larger in volume or smaller?
Lawyer:
You know, in terms of carding, the situation has changed somewhat. It has become a little more intelligent, more, so to speak, sophisticated, let’s say. That is, on the one hand, the old schemes still work.
America is, in general, one of the most, so to speak, backward countries in terms of, so to speak, cards with a chip, and many cards still do not have chips, and stores still accept them without chips, and you can order in stores without any special checks, especially what is ordered online or by phone, it does not have this element with chips at all. The second or third identification system. Usually, cards were sold on forums, they varied by bank, and sometimes they varied by people's cards and corporation cards.
Of course, there is more money in corporate accounts, this is obvious, and hackers and swindlers of all kinds knew this. In terms of banks, well, there is a question of bank security, and banks behaved primitively, in terms of how much money is there.
You know, it depends on people, on companies. People, of course, have less money, companies, of course, have more money. This is known. But again, bank security, I have the impression that it has not become much better. That is, I won’t name the banks, but, so to speak, I needed to open accounts in a couple of banks in the last couple of weeks.
But you will just laugh, that is, they ask large banks, please tell me, what is your mother's last name and what is the number of your school where you studied in order to create security? I sit and slowly think, my God, everyone has this written in Odnoklassniki, this is generally, what are they asking, but you know, if, so to speak, Russia and other countries can be very worried about security. In America, as they say, nothing to worry about, we will print more. It seems, it seems that this is how they look at it.
All their security makes me smile lately.
Carding in the USA: happy and unhappy carders
Speaker:
And how serious is the article in the USA on carding now, those who are engaged in this, has anything changed in the last five years? Maybe the terms have become longer or has the legislation in general begun to change?
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, I would divide the carders into two, into two classes. I would call one class lucky, and the second, and the second class I would call unfortunate. Who are the unfortunate? They are people. And the most interesting thing is that the unfortunate, unfortunately, are mainly citizens of Russia and Ukraine, who are engaged in the sale of databases. I am hinting at, perhaps, Mr. Seleznev or other database sellers who, so to speak, were caught and punished.
Why are they unfortunate? The thing is that in America they punish not for how much you earned, and not even for how much you stole. But in the United States they multiply by 500 dollars each card that you spoke about. That is, if you ordered from an agent who said that he wanted to buy 100 thousand cards, that you would do it for him, in the United States you are arrested for 100 thousand cards.
And multiplied by 500. That is, we are talking about some absolutely crazy millions of dollars, which neither of them has seen or will see. That is, I would simply call them unfortunate people. Why do the amounts scare me so much? Because the amounts are associated with longer terms. The thing is that we calculate the terms according to a table.
And the table has about a hundred sub-items. Well, a little less than a hundred sub-items, the higher the amount - up to 5 thousand, up to 20 thousand, up to 40 thousand, up to 60 and so on up to half a billion dollars. And each additional step in these amounts is a year or two in prison. And it turns out that a person who conspired to sell several hundred thousand credit cards, one to another, despite the fact that neither of them even had these cards.
They simply conspired, conspiracy, collusion. Today we have terms, some tens of years in prison, almost life imprisonment there. And that is why I call these people unfortunate carders who got 50 thousand dollars for 100 thousand cards, 100 thousand dollars, because it is a hallsale. They could not even sell them for 10, because the amount is large. Well, I mean, the quantity is large.
That is, these are the unhappy Carters, and there are Carters whom I call happy. Who are the happy Carters? I want to tell you a story. Once I was sitting in my office, and then my secretary calls me from the book. She says, listen, some people have come here, some scary gangsters from the Bloodscript organization.
They are just scary drug dealers with machine guns, but just creepy. I don’t even know how they walk down the street, how the police haven’t picked them up. And they say that they are carders. And they arrived in MIBs. I go downstairs. And then the story is just like usual with ordinary carders. We used to sell drugs.
And there are long sentences there. They can shoot you there. Everything is so sad there. Now we take 100 cards for 10 dollars. One of our smart guys rolls it on plastic, we go to the mall and start buying iPads, MacBooks. I have gorgeous ones that are taken to Craikslist, Facebook, eBay. Sometimes we just send them for export. We are simply delighted with our life, we are happy.
And also, if we are caught, we are responsible for exactly what we stole. And we usually get a suspended sentence for this. We are just happy people. This is not advertising, no need, they will put you in jail, you can even sit in prison for a month for this, but every day in prison is scary, I do not recommend it to anyone, but I saw happy faces of these people, and I clearly got the impression who is happy, who is unhappy.
Again, you do not need to be happy like these people, because they were lucky, before that they can give you six months, as they say. And the amounts, in fact, they steal are hundreds of thousands of dollars.
That is, quite large amounts, but we usually manage to get a suspended sentence when we are talking about exactly this, in Russia it is called a material cardinal, probably in this format.
Percentage of carding cases in a law office
Speaker:
There is a question about your cases that are related specifically to carding as a percentage of all your cases that you handle, that your office handles. Approximately what percentage is related specifically to carding? Let's say 50-60 percent of all cases?
Lawyer:
You know, carding large databases is actually not much. It can be literally several percent, so to speak, of all clients. That is, maybe once or twice a year, clients come with large database trade, and the rest, so to speak, are happy carders who are not threatened with long sentences, but again, you understand, spending one day in an American prison is scary.
That is, so to speak, I explain very clearly to our readers that God forbid you get caught, then it will be so sad and so shameful for the family. Carders who are engaged in stuff carding, they are probably the wealthiest and are in the safest zone.
But, again, we must clearly understand that the United States may not extradite for small amounts. But the United States has a tendency, when they are lazy or the amounts are too small for such material carders, they often leak information to jurisdictions that they treat with some mistrust or disrespect.
For example, to the city police or to the Frankfurt police or even to the German federal police. To the point that they often even work with Russian police officers and Ukrainian police officers who will simply come and arrest, and the Americans will hand them such information on small material carders on a silver platter.
That is, experienced carders, even material carders, and not those who trade in databases, they generally understand that this information in one form or another will still end up in the hands of the police at a low level, if it is a low level. That is, there are great risks in this.
Real terms for carding
Speaker:
In recent years, various Telegram channels have become very popular here, which teach carding for money, tell myths about how it is safe, how profitable it is. The only thing they ask subscribers, those who, let's say, buy their courses, is that they do not work in the CIS. We have such a rule. Many who encounter this for the first time, they generally, let's say, do not really understand the problem. What can be the consequences for carding and what real terms do those who then, for example, go somewhere to Europe or those countries where there is extradition to the USA receive.
I would like to understand what real terms can be received for carding?
Carders in the police
Lawyer:
You understand, in fact, what we see here is carding, if we are not talking about databases. When databases are traded, people are extradited left and right, they wait until they go on vacation to Thailand, the Maldives or even Dubai, and then, so to speak, extradition occurs. When it comes to carding of goods, in fact, a person is responsible for how much they stole, so to speak. That is why the amounts are usually not that big.
The amounts are often measured in tens of thousands of dollars. Sometimes there are hundreds of thousands of dollars, if you are an active, so to speak, carder. How safe is it? Of course, the compensation is good, I cannot argue with that. And the terms are much shorter than for drugs. But, again, it is very important for people to understand that, as I have already said, the United States gives this information to the local police or the local militia.
Whether it is Dutch, or German, or even Russian. And I know for sure that in other cases, the Russian prosecutor's office and the Russian police brought charges for American cards, if this took place on Russian territory or Russia was somehow involved, so to speak, at the request and with the submission of the United States.
That is, they had some of their own quirks there, they wanted to take their cards, they wanted to do pin-caching, the police themselves, so to speak, also had dirty hands, also more than once, often met, and we have also seen this, and I mean in Russia.
That is, there are terms, but extraditions, probably for stuff carding or, let's say, for street carding, are unlikely, let's say, I have not seen this, but again, is a Russian prison better than an American one, well, I don't know, that is, it's bad here, in Russia it's not very good either, but it's very bad here.
Which countries do not extradite carders
Speaker:
And which countries in general, let's say, are ideal for those same carders and do not extradite them to the US government.
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, there are countries that have signed an extradition treaty, and they usually, these countries usually extradite. There are countries that have not signed, but in this situation the issue is resolved between the prosecutor's offices and legal attachés of these countries. And in most cases, this can all end quite sadly.
A clear example, again, is Mr. Seleznev, who went to a country that does not have extradition by the United States, I do not mean the Maldives, but, so to speak, they agreed, they shook hands, I mean police officers from different countries, and, so to speak, the person was taken out with the help of some tricks. Tricks from the repertoire. So he crossed this turnstile or he did not cross this turnstile, So he already seemed to have left our country, but we somehow expelled him. We saw this with Mr. Panin in the Dominican Republic, where they simply threw a person into a plane and took him away. We saw this
with Mr. Yaroshenko in Liberia, where he was simply thrown into a plane and taken away. That is, the absence of extradition does not prevent the United States from frequently exporting people. But, again, it is very important to understand that the issue is not extradition or the presence or absence of this rule.
The issue is in the political relations between the countries. That is, let's say, if you engage in carding in Iran, I do not think that Iran will extradite you to the United States, because they simply hate them. Another question is whether we want to do this. The answer, of course, is no. But then we will be hanged in Iran.
The dangerous life of a carder
Lawyer:
That is, in fact, the life of a carder is not easy and dangerous.
And in recent years, carders simply come to me and say that it has become simply impossible to steal, because almost all the street video cameras that are there, large banking organizations, they have facial recognition. And I see this more and more often in packages with evidence that we have on clients. That is, the United States sells this Chinese software, installs it very actively, distributes it, and I have the impression that the same thing is happening in Russia.
To what extent Russia shares with the United States, it's hard for me to say, I don't know. This is at the political level, everything is classified, and the Russian government says that they don't like America, in fact, only the Almighty knows what's going on, but in But in reality, more and more often, if not always, we see this face recognition, face recognition, video cameras and analytical equipment in different countries, including the United States.
This is why it is impossible to steal. They listen everywhere, they see everywhere, and there is simply no peace. That is, even the clothing carders, well, if they are not completely stupid, they generally understand that this is simply the desire and unwillingness of the special services to get involved. That is, it is definitely possible to get involved and usually not that difficult. The question is, or do they need it.
Well, and the question is the amount. The smaller the amount, the less desire someone has to get involved.
Hunting for carders and who suffers from fraud
Speaker:
If we take, hypothetically, Vasily Petrovich from Bryatsk, he is a novice carder, located in the CIS. He buys a Visa card from a seller somewhere on the Internet for $150, let's say a shadow forum. There, this card is registered to an American, let's say it is a Walmart store manager, and the balance on this card is $800-900. So what does the carder do? He types, as I understand it, well, for example, Amazon and orders a modern TV.
What happens next in the chain? Am I right in arguing that after a while the bank, having realized that this is some kind of fraud, yes, fraud, contacts the insurance company, it contacts the police, and then the police begin an investigation. What happens next in the chain?
Lawyer:
You know, in our country a card practically never exists in a vacuum. That is, for a one-time theft or theft a couple of times, most likely the answer will be nothing. Somewhere, sometime, a database was stolen or some kind of sniffer was installed or at a gas station.
That is, at some point, all this information flows. We have such an organization called Quick Response. They do analytics at the Ministry of Justice, not at the FBI, I apologize, which does analytics of this data. So they determine that this card is your Ivan Petrovich, it came from an attack on some supermarket chain, and there, it means, they won it from him, and now they are selling it in retail.
Then they start watching video cameras, if they see who it is. Then they do their analytics. Very often, some people have already been arrested there using these databases. Sometimes quite high-level ones.
Well, and then the agencies decide what to do with this petty crook. If this Ivan Petrovich is sitting somewhere in the Russian hinterland, they have a question or they want to do something and the answer is probably no or they can send it through the attaché
this information to the local district police officer so that he would come to his home department handcuffs that is this is the dilemma that they themselves must ask themselves and answer this question and in most cases as far as I understand as far as I know with a certain flow of purchases and transactions and no information is sent. That is, answering the question, if this is the only purchase for 800 dollars, I assume that, most likely, neither the Americans nor the local district police officer will do this.
But, as soon as this turns from a one-time purchase into a business, then, most likely, complaints will follow and there will be, so to speak, an arrest.
But again, it is very important to understand that those carders who come to me and say that it has become impossible to steal, because face recognition is everywhere, the Americans wiretap almost all phones, all computers, because they either work on iOS, on Apple, or they work in Intel or in some other American systems. Yes, they cannot use this information in court. I agree, because there was no court order.
But this does not prevent them from conducting an investigation, finding some directions, making arrests, and at a later stage obtaining a court order. That is, not using what was obtained without permission, but using what was obtained with permission. That is, in fact, stealing has become almost impossible. And this is also connected with the pogroms in the city. That is, people steal and, most likely, no one will be arrested before the elections, because the state does not want, cannot, does not want, and so on.
I simply have no doubt that as soon as the election is over and an arrest will appear.
Speaker:
And if we talk about carding of goods, if, say, 5-6 times or even more times it happens for large amounts, that is, some expensive electronics. In such cases, in general, let's say, a bank that suffered from fraud, from fraud, do you understand correctly that it applies to the insurance company so that it is compensated, and then the insurance company applies, say, to the US Treasury. That is, who at the end of this chain suffers from this fraud?
We kind of say that it is the US government.
Lawyer:
It suffers. No. Russia suffers, not the United States. Russia always suffers for everything. This is completely obvious. Why Russia? Because the United States is not just an insurance company. It is a federal insurance system. In reality, it is simply an organization that insures deposits and these transactions. That is, it is not a private company, first of all. It turns out that the banks receive this money above the due date.
The United States, as usual, will print new money, which will then be paid for by India, Russia and the rest of China. These pieces of paper that they will print. And this Quick Response Team, this organization that is engaged in these investigations of the analytics of these purchases, they are already starting to do this investigation. That is, to the question of who suffers, no one suffers.
They will simply print new money, this is not such a problem for them. They are printing, they just draw zeros on their computer. They printed 10 trillion in the last couple of months, now they will print another 10, they will print in a trillion, that's how many zeros there are, and this is what they are arranging, they will print more. That is not the question. The question is, so to speak, will there be an arrest or not, or is this such a small amount that they simply do not even want to bother. This is the component, this is the main element.
In court, of course, it sounds like, look, they stole from the United States, stole from the bank, but in reality, it's just printed money, which, of course, is a headache for the people from whom this money was stolen, they have to fill out a form, they have to hang on the line for an hour, this is a loss of working time, and, of course, in front of the judge we say how these poor people suffered, because they spent half a day explaining to the banks, their credit rating dropped, and they owe there for months then, just like the bank.
That is, it's a huge waste of time and a huge inconvenience. But whether they really lost money, I doubt it.
Who catches carders, the police or the FBI
Speaker:
And who, in general, is investigating carding cases? Is it the police or the FBI? Who is responsible for this?
Lawyer:
You know, we have half a dozen agencies that do this. First they get to the bureau that does analytics, and then they start dumping it on the agencies that are interested in investigating this attack. Sometimes several agencies take on the same attack. Popular agents are the FBI, this is the Secret Service. They are engaged in the protection of the president and suddenly, unexpectedly, over the last few decades, they have become involved in carding, well, they have always been involved in counterfeiters.
This is done by HSI, Homeland Security, USS, this is the Secret Service, FB, all names and three letters everywhere. That is, Diplomatic Security, sometimes they do this.
Many federal agencies, postal inspectors sometimes even get involved in these matters. That is, this is another federal agency that deals with such investigations. And this is at the federal level. At the staff level, this intelligence information, or as we call it intelligence, is often leaked to the local level, to the city level.
Interaction between the US and Russian services on carder matters
Lawyer:
Where, of course, the police are much weaker, the salaries are much lower, and, so to speak, it's all much more primitive. More primitive, but if the case is well prepared, they will go and make an arrest. This is usually about relatively smaller amounts. And, of course, they leak it to their partners abroad when they don't want to bother or can't bother.
That is, leak this information to Germany, to France, to Holland, We see this constantly, now it has become more and more common in Ukraine, but in Russia too, in fact. That is, if they understand that this small-time crook from the Russian hinterland is unlikely to go anywhere, then they just stop it, put a stop to it, even taking into account the great disrespect and mistrust of the Russian special services, Because here, I often communicate with agents, but they still leak it to them, I often communicate with agents.
Agents say it is very difficult to trust the Russian police when they slap Carters in order to take away their cards and resell them to someone else, or to do it themselves through their front men, to do ping-caching, to pull cash out of the machine.
That is, the American special services know this, so the respect is not wildly high, but better this way than nothing. Therefore, so to speak, they also coordinate with the Russian special services and also provide this information.
The amount of damage and who takes on the case
Speaker:
Arkady, but look, it means that the police are involved in the investigation in the case, let's say, if the amount of damage, let's say, exceeds, say, 5 thousand dollars or 10 thousand, or all the same these amounts should be higher.
Lawyer:
Look, it means that different agencies and different districts have different input budgets, below which they do not want to fall, because they are too cool. The greatest district, the greatest direction is our New York southern district in Manhattan. These are people who arrest presidents of countries, congressmen of other countries and congressmen of all sorts, so to speak, where we are talking about several million dollars.
If we are talking about other districts or other, so to speak, federal jurisdictions, there could be millions, even a little less. At the city level, when they leaked this information, I think they want to see at least a hundred, two, well, maybe many tens of thousands of dollars.
And if there are not tens of thousands of dollars, well, the answer is, probably, no one is interested in it at all. That is, I don’t think they will even do it, that they will even do it, send it to the international attaché. That is, there should be tens of thousands of dollars.
Less than tens, I think, probably not.
If you enter 300-400 dollars, what will happen for this?
Speaker:
Am I right in understanding that, let's say, a certain Vasily Petrovich, yes, who enters at a time, I don't know, the same thing, stuff carding, for 300, 400 dollars and the total amount of damage that he causes, well, let's say, does not reach 10 thousand dollars a month, well, in fact, in principle, nothing will happen to him for this. Again, probably depends on the district, but nevertheless, in general, we can say that it is more or less safe.
Lawyer:
You know, it is not a question of a month, it is a question of several years. That is, if it runs up to tens of thousands of dollars, there is a chance that they will leak this information, that he will be arrested. But again, I don't want this to be a proposal for people to steal little by little, and what if a person gets arrested and then I'll be ashamed that I gave a person a lawyer's
recommendation to steal, but little by little, that is, I won't survive if my listener ends up behind bars even for a week for petty theft, that is, it's a sin and it's suffering for a person.
Speaker:
If we're talking about the US Secret Service, which is investigating very large carding cases, they're looking at cases that are, let's say, of a larger scale. What amounts usually figure in such investigations?
Lawyer:
You know, I haven't seen federal services that have less than in recent years, let's say, more than half a million dollars. That is, if it's less than half a million, not a single federal agency has taken on such a thing. But that doesn't mean they won't leak this information to the city level or the international level. I mean the Russian police, so that they simply shut down this small shop.
Therefore, this is not a reason to relax and not a reason to think that if I steal little, the Americans will not come to me. Yes, the Americans will not come, the local police officer will come with a big rubber truncheon.
Where is it safer for carders to enter USA vs EU
Speaker:
If we are talking about criminal law in the USA and the European Union, in general, where is it safer for a person to engage in their activities and steal money? Figuratively speaking, many, say, who sit on these forums, they talk about what is in Europe, right?
Lawyer:
In Europe. The thing is that in America the sentences are terrible, just terrible. In Russia, there are elements of bullying, tough prisons, and so on. That is, the happiest, the most worthy cards are those who stole European banks while in Europe, minimal sentences, you served a year, they counted a day for you as three, and so on.
France is especially relaxed, Italy, but simply relaxed. That is, this is the coolest place to steal again, because I understand that no one wants to have a day in prison. But, let's say, the happiest, but stolen dollar, if the question is asked like this, are those who stole from northern European banks in Europe, but I also do not recommend.
Why are there so many carders in Ukraine
Speaker:
Why traditionally do we have, say, so many carders in Ukraine? We can say that even more than in the Russian Federation.
Lawyer:
Kharkov is really a computer, mathematical, engineering, technical center. Indeed, let's say, the cream of the Soviet society, mathematical, technical and technological, which was and is located there, but the low standard of living has historically led to the fact that people want to live like in the West, living like in the West does not work out for some reason, and the youth went into computer fraud, in this case hacking, carding and so on.
That is why we often see such major swindlers in Odessa, Kharkov, and St. Petersburg. In Moscow, there are actually few, although they do happen.
How the FBI tracks the movement of carders
Speaker:
And how does the FBI track the movement of carders from the CIS, when they, for example, go on vacation, to the Maldives or somewhere else? Where do they get this information about flights, about their movements?
Lawyer:
You know, first of all, the United States has long ago introduced an anti-terrorist program, anti-terrorist software, so now they know how, what, and when everything that gets on a plane. In airports, as part of this program, there is also face recognition, facial recognition, and almost eye reading.
That is exactly what I am talking about. Swindlers come, serious, well-known swindlers, they just come and say, and say that it has become impossible to steal, because they take it away at the airport. At the airport they have this... The United States has software similar to all over the world. To what extent Russia coordinates with them and provides access is unclear.
At one time, Russia used this software. Now they seem to say that they do not allow it to be used, in fact, they do or do not allow it, only the Almighty knows. The carders themselves do not trust the Russian media, because they understand that the Russian media say that we can't stand America, But in fact, so to speak, there is coordination and data exchange, exchange, what is called MLAD, this is information exchange at the state level, an agreement between countries, as well as the use of this American software.
That is, to what extent this coordination occurs is unclear to anyone, because this is for secret data.
Having entered into cloud mining
Speaker:
Arkady, here was an interesting question from one of the subscribers, were there any cases in your practice when carders entered funds of American citizens into cloud mining services, which are engaged in cryptocurrencies. How does this even happen? That is, a credit card is taken, certain funds are withdrawn from it and for these funds a certain virtual contract is drawn up with a company that, for this money, let's say, allocates you certain capacities for mining the same bitcoin and, for example, this is valid for five years, mainly this is the jurisdiction of Hong Kong.
Lawyer:
You know, I don't remember specifically with cloud mining, but what can I comment on, if a credit card is given not to a place with a good reputation, such as eBay, such as large American or European stores, but mainly American, Amazon and so on, especially foreign, especially Hong Kong, such transactions are frozen immediately.
That is, the United States is increasingly using pattern analytics, transactions, and when suddenly a housewife does some kind of incomprehensible cloud mining in Hong Kong, you can imagine the bank's response. The bank's response will be very simple.
They will call the housewife and ask, "Madam, is everything OK with you?" But in reality, I think they call me once a day. Given that my marketing department is located both in Russia and Ukraine, and sometimes they have to pay for some of their computer services, and they call me every other day. And they ask, we have a transaction here to Russia. Is everything OK with you? Do you have a card? I say, no, no, it's OK. And very often they first stop, and then sort it out. That is, Hong Kong, Russia, Ukraine and other Eastern Europe will not work.
That is, well, there are some banks that, well, got something mixed up there and, maybe, they will get through. But in reality, this is extremely unlikely and it all looks pretty sad. Well, again, this woman will notice that it was an operation, because people look at their statements several times a week, and therefore directly on the phone, therefore the probability that they will detect, stop.
And then the question arises, then the organization that deals with the analysis of theft is engaged in, where this credit card was stolen from. Yes, indeed, cryptocurrency may not be so easy to track, although there is already very good analytics for this, and they are very good at determining by cryptocurrency who it went to, when it went and how it went. But even at a lower level of payment, they already, so to speak, see something and know something, have some analytics.
But again we return to the same question. To steal a little, most likely, will get away with it, and the more, the more chances to catch.
Real carding
Speaker:
If we are talking about real carding, that is, real carding using skimmers in the US, how problematic is it still or is this particular direction of carding, is it already becoming, let's say, a thing of the past?
Lawyer:
You know, I just haven't seen or heard of skimmers who simply collect cards at gas stations for about 5 years. And the fact that such clients don't come to me most likely suggests that it has probably gone into oblivion. It probably doesn't make sense, that is, there is no such flow of cars at gas stations that it would make sense. It
's easier to buy for 5 dollars on Facebook, on a closed black forum on Facebook, it's easier to buy a hundred cards for 5 dollars, and if you haggle, you can buy them for 3. I don't see the point in collecting it. I think that for this reason, probably, this form of carding has died.
Can US intelligence services kidnap a person from the Russian Federation
? Speaker:
There was also another interesting question after our interview. Some viewers asked a question, a personal message, about how the American authorities can kidnap a cybercriminal on their territory and deliver him to the United States. To what extent is this true or a myth? And are there any real examples of this?
Lawyer:
There are no examples. I think it is unrealistic. I think that this has not really happened. Although I cannot disclose names, but there have been proposals. That is, Russian, so to speak, bandits say, let's throw someone in the trunk for whom they are offering millions, hundreds of thousands, and somehow take him out and transport him somewhere.
And in reality, the United States does not want to dirty its hands with this. That is, I have heard such proposals, but the agents do not want to do this. That is, if they want to take revenge, then not in this way, not throw a person in the trunk and take him to Ukraine, Poland, and so on. Most likely, if the Americans want to take revenge, it will most likely be in the form of complaining through the attaché so that the local police officer can come and punish Carder with a rubber truncheon right in his hut.
That's what I saw and heard. And he also took away some cards for himself.
Is there an increase in crimes related to carding?
Speaker:
And in general, has the number of crimes related to carding been growing in recent years or decreasing, if we take statistics in general?
Lawyer:
You know, in my opinion, it is stable at the same level. Other computer attacks are growing. Traffic theft is growing, ransomware is growing, all kinds of ransoms are growing, computer systems are hostage, hospitals are hostage. That's the kind of thing.
Why doesn't the US banking system change its security system?
Speaker:
Why do you think the US banking system doesn't change its security system to combat carders? Or, in general, if we talk about the amounts of damage from carders, they are, in general, quite small?
Lawyer:
You know, I thought about this issue very seriously in my cybersecurity company, CyberSec Group. What did I find? The thing is that European banks really suffer from carders. This is why, when a database was stolen, many Russian carders, instead of selling cards to retail, simply contact a French, Swiss or Italian bank, and they will gladly pay a couple hundred thousand dollars, shake hands and they will promise not to give it to anyone.
In general, both countries keep their word. In the United States, this is prohibited and impossible. This is why Russian carders, Ukrainian carders do not sell it to banks, that the banks simply will not buy it, because they are insured and the government will pay. And the government has a tendency, so to speak, the concept of not bargaining with terrorists and thieves. And this is why, and this is like a national palace, this is a national rule.
This leads to the fact that, so to speak, Eastern European carders pump out money, and the United States continues to print new money, but it is called an insurance company, a federal insurance company, in fact it is just a federal resource that covers the damage and produces new zeros to the new trillions
of dollars that they print.
Is it difficult to defend lone carders in a US court?
Speaker:
And in general, is it difficult to defend an amateur carder in an American court, let's say a non-professional, maybe a lone one, but who caused a large amount of damage.
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, lone carders, firstly, we don't have such high prices for lone carders, because lone carders, they usually deal with small amounts, their sentences are not that long, in general, the federal service doesn't bother them, the city or state police deal with them. That is, there are sentences of several years. That is, if he goes with a free lawyer, it will most likely end up with not such wild terms in principle.
That is, we are talking about a year or two. For amounts up to 100 thousand dollars, maybe a little more. And if they come with good private lawyers, it works out even without cooperation. Many do not want to cooperate with the prosecutor's office, having paid, so to speak, damages, apologizing, and so on.
You can even get out on probation, something like that, without even cooperating. Although many say that it is not difficult for me, I am not a professional gangster, I will gladly go to my Facebook and salt those from whom I bought. Let me buy and do these operations under your supervision. Well, in this case, statistically it turns out to be a 30 percent discount on terms, and our office manages to get out almost always, how much time he served, how much time he served, if the client still wants to cooperate.
Well, again, some want to cooperate, some say, can I just find guilty. To prove innocence in our court, we, like in Japan and Belarus, have a 99 percent chance that a person will be found guilty. What is called the conviction rate, the rating that they will find the guilty.
Clients say, listen, I am not an ordinary typical agent. We do not go on an operation where there is a 99% chance that we will not get up with it.
Is carding easy money?
Speaker:
And the final question, what advice would you give to those who have not yet broken anything, but are thinking about easy money through carding?
Lawyer:
You know, in fact, I don’t think that it’s easy money. The thing is that in order to steal safely, you need to invest tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for a relatively safe theft. The thing is that the US government invests absolutely crazy billions of dollars in tracking, in facial recognition, eyes, and so on, in wiretapping of all devices in general.
That is, in reality, stealing with impunity is almost probably impossible, and the bigger question is how much money you will have to put there, and stealing in the hope that it is too little and therefore they will not come to you sounds stupid.
That is, perhaps, it may be better to look for a good employer in the United States either upon arrival or remotely, and work in America, work in Western countries. And Russian companies, there are a lot of computer companies that pay good money. That is, I have a lot of Russian companies that we, so to speak, lead, that complain that they lack good and, so to speak, smart workers.
If you are smart, educated and, so to speak, intelligent and a good worker, there are a lot of opportunities, a lot of options. Don't want to work for someone else? Open your own company. That's also an option.
But like that, to come quickly and steal, but that sounds stupid and well, and 5 times you'll probably get lucky, the question is what will happen the 10th time and that's the situation, people usually steal once or twice 5 10 it turns out that it's okay, but on the 12th the police or militia come, it all ends very, very sadly, that is, my advice is probably better not to, it will be more expensive.
Speaker:
Arkady, thank you very much for the interview. If anyone has any questions, I will post all the contacts of Arkady's office and you can safely write to him to use legal assistance, request, perhaps, a consultation, and so on. Arkady, thank you very much.
Lawyer:
Thank you.
Guest of the interview Arkady Bukh:
www.bukhglobal.com - official website
honorable@usa.com - ask a question/suggestion
Contact by phone +16462204697, Skype, Viber, What's up, WeChat, Telegram, Wire, FaceTime, Facebook messenger, Signal
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